Gun thread for Hyphen

My head is swimming with the options for an elk gun for this season. I've likely missed some important details but would appreciate feedback. I'll try to lay out some background, disclaimers, limitations, and desires first. Most of this stems from me not liking the stocks I have due to trigger reach and then looking at caliber changes/consolidation.
  • Gun use: I don't intend to compete and will use it mostly for TX deer, exotics, coyotes, hogs and western hunts of elk.
  • Recoil: I'm handling my 30-06 recoil OK with 168 gr in 10 lb scoped gun without a break. I would like to reduce recoil and gun weight a little. Adding a break or can is likely.
  • Reloading: I want to handload a few loads for this gun, first being for elk. I don't want to spend half my time developing them though. I want good brass that lasts a while. I don't intend to load too hot.
    • Disclaimer: I'm fairly new to reloading and have not rebarreled or rechambered. I'm not dumb but may bung up use of some terms or may ask for clarification.
  • Barrels: I want to shoot heavier (>= 175 gr) bullets for elk, so want at least 1:8.4 twist. 1:8 is better. I don't want a 26" barrel, so am looking at 22 or 24 with a break or can. I'm leaning toward carbon fiber but open to other options for this year and CF later if decided.
  • Range: In TX, shots are up to 300 yd with 100-200 most common. I'll be glad to limit range on game out west to 400 yd. Anything farther would be on steel or to blow up varmints.
  • Actions: I think Rem 700, Savage and Tikka lead candidates for pre-fit barrel options. No particular preference other than a means to lock the bolt.
  • Stock: I haven't notice LOP being my issue but rather trigger reach. With sausage fingers, I need a pistol grip for a good pull. I have a Tikka T1x with the pistol grip that fits well and most of the pistol grip stocks I have tried seem to fit well. I trigger that is near guard helps too, like Browning, for example.
  • Caliber: I've wanted 280AI for a while but am being tempted as well with 7 SAUM..... hence most of the dilemma.
  • Cost: Not necessarily the limiting factor, but targeting under $2K. I may put a box of ammo through it yearly (after loads developed) so no need to build the dream gun.
  • Schedule: I would like to buy or build the gun within the next couple months, rather than wait until summer in TX to spend all my time at the range for load development. If not feasible, will likely stick with one of the 30-06 and suffer with the trigger reach or figure out out stock swap. I may do that and try to get plan and parts together for 2023.

Caliber dilemma: I can find 280AI dies but not barrels or Peterson brass. I can find 7 SAUM barrels but not dies or ADG brass.

Gun cabinet candidates: These three guns are available to sell, modify or use as is.
  • Savage 110 Predator 6.5 CM: I love the action and it shoots great. It is front heavy, overall heavy and trigger reach is too long. I have two factory stocks for it.
  • Mossberg Patriot 30-06: Crap. First rifle. I've missed so many goats, sheep and deer with it I'm embarrassed. I spent a lot of last summer trying to get a load it likes, without success. I have the wood and polymer stocks for it.
  • Winchester Model 70 Extreme Weather (stainless) 30-06 in Bell and Carlson stock. I love the hinged floorplate. I really hate the stock. It is bedded well and is solid but fits me terribly. I have factory and handloads that are fine at 200, but need to tighten up at 300 (max at our range) if I use it this year. Despite recoil, I may move back up to 180 gr bullets also.
Options I've considered:
  1. Restock and rebarrel the Win 70 in 280AI. McMillan stocks seem available and reasonable. I don't think I've seen an in-stock pre-fit barrel.
  2. Restock and rebarrel the Savage in 7 SAUM. I would need a new magnum bolt... or is the bolt face changeable? My magazine length is 3.02" so plenty of room.
  3. Buy and rebarrel a Tikka T3x in 280AI. I like the interchangeable grip on the stock. I really want the new green Super Varmint stock but who knows when. I can't find an in-stock pre-fit barrel. Wait times for custom will be 4-6 months. I seemed to missed @Nhenry 's fluted 280AI barrel or that would be a great option for at least this year.
  4. Buy and rebarrel a Tikka T3x in 7 SAUM. I can find in-stock (and local) Proof barrels in the 1:8 and 1:8.4 twist and 22 and 24" length. No brass or dies.
  5. Buy a Browning X-Bolt or Winchester 70 in 280AI. Some X-Bolts have McMillan stocks but long 26" barrels. X-bolts are 7.5 twist and M70s are 8. Could get length I want and restock if needed. Same price as any above option that gets a CF barrel. May be one of best options for schedule.
  6. Buy a 280AI rifle with a 1:9 twist.
  7. Any of options 1-4 where I use a barrel blank. I'm guessing gunsmithing might be >$500 to chamber and thread which makes a CF barrel pretty expensive. Not sure of gunsmith backlog but seems it would be less than 4-6 months.
 
If you do want another rifle I’d also vote 280AI, it’s starting to see quite a bit of factory support now and the 7 saum is all but dead from that side. Brass won’t ever be an issue either, even if you had to fall back on fire forming it.

Personally I’d probably upgrade the stock on the Winchester to something carbon fiber and maybe new glass. Get the weight down a little and have a heck of a gun in 30-06. At the ranges you’re talking about you aren’t gaining much. Find some accubonds (mine likes 165s) and go to work or if you’re looking for a non lead option Hammer will have a flavor for you.
 
1. Find a stock that fits you and then see what actions it fits -- I would not normally put this high on the list, but seems like a big issue for you. You will never be satisfied with the resulting rifle if you don't get this right.
2. Sell the Savage and the Mossberg - seems like they will just sit it the safe given your stated concerns.
3. If a stock you like from step #1 supports your model 70 keep it - if not sell it.
4. Pick your bullet. I very much recommend going ~140grn copper in 7mm or ~150gn copper in .30 - both will kill anything in North America from 280AI, 7SAUM or 30-06. I would look at Barnes TTSX/LRX or Hammers. No reason to go with 200gn lead for your use case.
5. If the model 70 action is kept and put in new stock, work up your loads for 30-06. This is the cheapest path given you have everything.
6. If you want to keep the m70 action but want to switch to 7mm - then rebarrel. Lots of good brands for your use case. The use case for carbon fiber option is to keep weight down while still having a thick enough barrel to allow for good shoulder for threading a suppressor. 24 inch barrel would be my choice for 280AI, but that makes it really long with a suppressor. If you want to hunt a suppressor you may want to choose a cartridge that shoots well out of an 18" barrel - like .308 or 7x57.
6. If you need a new barreled action, pick one that will fit the stock you like. Tikka is the nicest action of the ones you listed but does not come in 280AI or 7SAUM - and if you are rebarreling yourself they are a b*tch to pull the barrel on. If you are going to build piece by piece a good quality REM 700 footprint action is a great option - but there will be significant lead times. This will be your most expensive option.
 
Hyphen said:
My head is swimming with the options for an elk gun for this season. I've likely missed some important details but would appreciate feedback. I'll try to lay out some background, disclaimers, limitations, and desires first. Most of this stems from me not liking the stocks I have due to trigger reach and then looking at caliber changes/consolidation.
  • Gun use: I don't intend to compete and will use it mostly for TX deer, exotics, coyotes, hogs and western hunts of elk.
  • Recoil: I'm handling my 30-06 recoil OK with 168 gr in 10 lb scoped gun without a break. I would like to reduce recoil and gun weight a little. Adding a break or can is likely.
  • Reloading: I want to handload a few loads for this gun, first being for elk. I don't want to spend half my time developing them though. I want good brass that lasts a while. I don't intend to load too hot.
    • Disclaimer: I'm fairly new to reloading and have not rebarreled or rechambered. I'm not dumb but may bung up use of some terms or may ask for clarification.
  • Barrels: I want to shoot heavier (>= 175 gr) bullets for elk, so want at least 1:8.4 twist. 1:8 is better. I don't want a 26" barrel, so am looking at 22 or 24 with a break or can. I'm leaning toward carbon fiber but open to other options for this year and CF later if decided.
  • Range: In TX, shots are up to 300 yd with 100-200 most common. I'll be glad to limit range on game out west to 400 yd. Anything farther would be on steel or to blow up varmints.
  • Actions: I think Rem 700, Savage and Tikka lead candidates for pre-fit barrel options. No particular preference other than a means to lock the bolt.
  • Stock: I haven't notice LOP being my issue but rather trigger reach. With sausage fingers, I need a pistol grip for a good pull. I have a Tikka T1x with the pistol grip that fits well and most of the pistol grip stocks I have tried seem to fit well. I trigger that is near guard helps too, like Browning, for example.
  • Caliber: I've wanted 280AI for a while but am being tempted as well with 7 SAUM..... hence most of the dilemma.
  • Cost: Not necessarily the limiting factor, but targeting under $2K. I may put a box of ammo through it yearly (after loads developed) so no need to build the dream gun.
  • Schedule: I would like to buy or build the gun within the next couple months, rather than wait until summer in TX to spend all my time at the range for load development. If not feasible, will likely stick with one of the 30-06 and suffer with the trigger reach or figure out out stock swap. I may do that and try to get plan and parts together for 2023.

Caliber dilemma: I can find 280AI dies but not barrels or Peterson brass. I can find 7 SAUM barrels but not dies or ADG brass.

Gun cabinet candidates: These three guns are available to sell, modify or use as is.
  • Savage 110 Predator 6.5 CM: I love the action and it shoots great. It is front heavy, overall heavy and trigger reach is too long. I have two factory stocks for it.
  • Mossberg Patriot 30-06: Crap. First rifle. I've missed so many goats, sheep and deer with it I'm embarrassed. I spent a lot of last summer trying to get a load it likes, without success. I have the wood and polymer stocks for it.
  • Winchester Model 70 Extreme Weather (stainless) 30-06 in Bell and Carlson stock. I love the hinged floorplate. I really hate the stock. It is bedded well and is solid but fits me terribly. I have factory and handloads that are fine at 200, but need to tighten up at 300 (max at our range) if I use it this year. Despite recoil, I may move back up to 180 gr bullets also.
Options I've considered:
  1. Restock and rebarrel the Win 70 in 280AI. McMillan stocks seem available and reasonable. I don't think I've seen an in-stock pre-fit barrel.
  2. Restock and rebarrel the Savage in 7 SAUM. I would need a new magnum bolt... or is the bolt face changeable? My magazine length is 3.02" so plenty of room.
  3. Buy and rebarrel a Tikka T3x in 280AI. I like the interchangeable grip on the stock. I really want the new green Super Varmint stock but who knows when. I can't find an in-stock pre-fit barrel. Wait times for custom will be 4-6 months. I seemed to missed @Nhenry 's fluted 280AI barrel or that would be a great option for at least this year.
  4. Buy and rebarrel a Tikka T3x in 7 SAUM. I can find in-stock (and local) Proof barrels in the 1:8 and 1:8.4 twist and 22 and 24" length. No brass or dies.
  5. Buy a Browning X-Bolt or Winchester 70 in 280AI. Some X-Bolts have McMillan stocks but long 26" barrels. X-bolts are 7.5 twist and M70s are 8. Could get length I want and restock if needed. Same price as any above option that gets a CF barrel. May be one of best options for schedule.
  6. Buy a 280AI rifle with a 1:9 twist.
  7. Any of options 1-4 where I use a barrel blank. I'm guessing gunsmithing might be >$500 to chamber and thread which makes a CF barrel pretty expensive. Not sure of gunsmith backlog but seems it would be less than 4-6 months.
Click to expand...
I'm not 100% sure you can have everything you want with a .280 AI. The parts that seem to conflict are the desire to shoot heavy bullets, coupled with the desire for less recoil. I've never owned one, but I can't imagine that shooting 175 grain bullets in a .280 AI is going to get you much less recoil than your 'o6 with 168's. I might (respectfully) suggest that you worry less about big bullets. The fact that you've recognized recoil as something you'd like to reduce means it's probably affecting your shooting. Get something that legitimately kicks less, like a 7mm-08, or a 7x57. Maybe even something like a 6.5 PRC if your heart goes pitter patter over flatter trajectories. They'll all kill elk. Just my two cents.
 
Bambistew said:
Why are pre-fit barrels a requirement?

I'd build a nice 700 in a McMillan mountain rifle chambered in 280AI.
Click to expand...
It just seemed an easier path since I don't have much experience and have less experience leaning on others that have more. Whew! Turning it over to someone to build a $3k custom rifle wasn't really the goal.
 
I have a 280ai being finished now that will be hitting the classifieds here if another member decides he doesn’t want it. It’s assembled from a PTG custom shop 700 mountain rifle.
 
VikingsGuy said:
1. Find a stock that fits you and then see what actions it fits -- I would not normally put this high on the list, but seems like a big issue for you. You will never be satisfied with the resulting rifle if you don't get this right.
2. Sell the Savage and the Mossberg - seems like they will just sit it the safe given your stated concerns.
3. If a stock you like from step #1 supports your model 70 keep it - if not sell it.
4. Pick your bullet. I very much recommend going ~140grn copper in 7mm or ~150gn copper in .30 - both will kill anything in North America from 280AI, 7SAUM or 30-06. I would look at Barnes TTSX/LRX or Hammers. No reason to go with 200gn lead for your use case.
5. If the model 70 action is kept and put in new stock, work up your loads for 30-06. This is the cheapest path given you have everything.
6. If you want to keep the m70 action but want to switch to 7mm - then rebarrel. Lots of good brands for your use case. The use case for carbon fiber option is to keep weight down while still having a thick enough barrel to allow for good shoulder for threading a suppressor. 24 inch barrel would be my choice for 280AI, but that makes it really long with a suppressor. If you want to hunt a suppressor you may want to choose a cartridge that shoots well out of an 18" barrel - like .308 or 7x57.
6. If you need a new barreled action, pick one that will fit the stock you like. Tikka is the nicest action of the ones you listed but does not come in 280AI or 7SAUM - and if you are rebarreling yourself they are a b*tch to pull the barrel on. If you are going to build piece by piece a good quality REM 700 footprint action is a great option - but there will be significant lead times. This will be your most expensive option.
Click to expand...
Dougfirtree said:
I'm not 100% sure you can have everything you want with a .280 AI. The parts that seem to conflict are the desire to shoot heavy bullets, coupled with the desire for less recoil. I've never owned one, but I can't imagine that shooting 175 grain bullets in a .280 AI is going to get you much less recoil than your 'o6 with 168's. I might (respectfully) suggest that you worry less about big bullets. The fact that you've recognized recoil as something you'd like to reduce means it's probably affecting your shooting. Get something that legitimately kicks less, like a 7mm-08, or a 7x57. Maybe even something like a 6.5 PRC if your heart goes pitter patter over flatter trajectories. They'll all kill elk. Just my two cents.
Click to expand...
Very legit comments. Forums are great for talking me in and out of whether the 7-08 or 6.5 PRC are enough gun for elk. Considering I don't consider myself a long-ranger, I should get over it.
If I don't need heavy bullets for 280AI and 9 twist is sufficient, I could buy and restock a Savage or there are lots of factory options for pistol-grip stocks/chassis with 9 twist.
Agree restocking the M70 is the easiest option. I'm currently loading 30-06 with 168 gr TTSX and 168 gr ABLRs on Big Game powder. I'm very happy with my glass choices.
 
Woox or Grayboe chassis
Zermatt Big Horn Origin action.
Criterion barrel in caliber and profile of your choice.
Triggertech Trigger


Fits all of your requirements. I just happen to be chambering mine in .280 Remington.

With the bolt heads I have, I can chamber this from .204 ruger all the way to .358 win mag and a few other magnum calibers.
A6D7CB97-58A5-4095-B56F-871D7956EEC0.jpeg
 
I think for this year, given all the .30 bullets, dies, mandrels, and factory ammo I have, these may be the best options:
1. Restock the Win 70 and maybe thread to add a break.
2. Restock and rebarrel my Savage 6.5 CM to 308 Win.
3. Restock and rebarrel the Win 70 to 308 and restock and rebarrel the Savage still in 6.5 CM since I have bullets and dies.

Stupid question: Given my Win 70 is LA and hinged floorplate, can I go SA 308 just by rebarreling? It seems like the chamber needs to move back (long threads) or the bolt needs to be longer to make up that 1/2 inch.

Sure seems practical. Then next year I can get finger implants and parts may be in stock to go to another chamber. Really, all of this is moot if in year four I still never fire a shot at an elk... but that is another thread.
 
Hyphen said:
Very legit comments. Forums are great for talking me in and out of whether the 7-08 or 6.5 PRC are enough gun for elk. Considering I don't consider myself a long-ranger, I should get over it.
If I don't need heavy bullets for 280AI and 9 twist is sufficient, I could buy and restock a Savage or there are lots of factory options for pistol-grip stocks/chassis with 9 twist.
Agree restocking the M70 is the easiest option. I'm currently loading 30-06 with 168 gr TTSX and 168 gr ABLRs on Big Game powder. I'm very happy with my glass choices.
Click to expand...

7mm08 is fine for elk. As are .308 and 7x57. 6.5 PRC is probably fine for elk, but not a great option for 18" barrel.

I have lost interest in Savages due to "gritty" action, but again, I would pick a stock that works for you, then the cartridge, then the action. If they don't have that cartridge factory with that action then just rebarrel. Don't get a rifle that doesn't fit as well or action that is not as smooth just to go 280AI.

Shoot 150gn coppers in the 30-06. Lighter and faster is the ticket when shooting cooper.
 
Hyphen said:
I think for this year, given all the .30 bullets, dies, mandrels, and factory ammo I have, these may be the best options:
1. Restock the Win 70 and maybe thread to add a break.
2. Restock and rebarrel my Savage 6.5 CM to 308 Win.
3. Restock and rebarrel the Win 70 to 308 and restock and rebarrel the Savage still in 6.5 CM since I have bullets and dies.

Stupid question: Given my Win 70 is LA and hinged floorplate, can I go SA 308 just by rebarreling? It seems like the chamber needs to move back (long threads) or the bolt needs to be longer to make up that 1/2 inch.

Sure seems practical. Then next year I can get finger implants and parts may be in stock to go to another chamber. Really, all of this is moot if in year four I still never fire a shot at an elk... but that is another thread.
Click to expand...

1. Sometimes stock design can really improve felt recoil, and brake or a can will for sure.
2. Other than the fact you have .30 cal projectiles already, there really isn't a great reason to do this. Restock the 6.5 and use it to hunt what you want to hunt.
3. why to all, makes no sense.

Since your 70 is long action, you would need to install a short action internal magazine (I doubt it will be drop in or easy), or modify your long action magazine to short action length. The threading and bolt have nothing to do with this.

It sounds like you already have an elk capable rifle, -06 isn't some recoil monster. Change the stock, get out on the range and practice until you're comfortable.
 
As has already been stated, I don’t think that you are going to get much less recoil by going 280ai. 30-06 with 165 NABs or 150 TTSX or Hammer will take everything that you want with less recoil than the 180s.

Why not rebarrel your Savage 110 6.5CM to 7-08? Or, since it’s a long action, .270 Win. They are very similar ballistically, especially at the ranges that you are talking about. A 140gr NAB in either one would be the cat’s pajamas. Brass is abundant, and both have staying power for ammo and components.
 
One last word of advice. There are at least 100 different configurations that would meet your needs, but none will be perfect. You need to just pick a path and move forward. Each choice will have pros/cons. You will learn, adapt and if needed try again with a lot more experience under your belt. Getting a rifle that can kill elk out to 400y is not that hard if you can do your job behind the trigger. Avoid paralysis by analysis.
 
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