Grazing Montana WMAs

[Mato]

Glen on #2-how is fair market value determined? I'd expect if it's truly fair market it'd be what they'd pay to lease on other lands?

 

[JLS]

So...wild sheep are not allowed to use a wildlife management area paid for with sportsmen's $, only domestic sheep allowed on the property?

If they do they are to be shot on sight?

Does this actually seem like the right way to manage a "WILDLIFE Management Area"?

Anyone have anymore info on this? It might be just the opportunity for me to get a Montana Ram without ever drawing a tag

My memory on this is foggy, and I may end up talking out of my azz here. As I recall, a provision of the transplant into the Greenhorn Range was that it was not desireable for the herd to expand into areas in the Gravellies and Snowcrest that had current domestic sheep allotments.

That is the crux of the policy that sheep migrating to the west would be shot, given the risk of them bringing disease back into the Greenhorn herd. If memory serves me right, this conciliation on FWPs part was the only reason this transplant went through. If the agreement was made, it should be honored regardless of how much I'd like to see sheep in the Snowcrest Range.

 

[Mark Albrecht]

Glen on #2-how is fair market value determined? I'd expect if it's truly fair market it'd be what they'd pay to lease on other lands?

Mato, - Fair market can be established in a number of ways. What concerns me is if we are losing sportsman dollars are we getting anything in return? Has access been written into the agreement in a structured way. Have we benchmarked -measured progress/improvement in a meaningful way.

But back to fair market most public grazing is far below the cost of private land grazing. Current Forest Service and BLM grazing is $1.35 per AUM I believe. So one cow and calf for one month cost $1.35( I can't feed my horse for that!). Our WMAs should be able to do better as a June 19, 2012 Congressional Research Service report showed a significant loss. In FY 2009 the BLM spent $49.3 million in management and brought in $11.9 million in fees, the Forest Service spent $72.1 million and brought in $5.2 million. So huge losses and if we are having that kind of loss(can't prove we are) using sportsman dollars and the fees are below what similar land in private hands might lease for then I think we need something in return like measurable benefit - not anecdotal evidence , and or access that is inclusive not exclusive.

 

[buglum]

I think as part of the original agreement before they were transplanted to the Greenhorns, they aren't supposed to leave. If they do they can be shot. I don't report them if I see them.

Thats right. Their is a resident herd in the snowcrests that I have photographed many times. FWP has asked me multiple times whether I have seen any sheep. The answer is best kept a secret.

 

[Glenn Hockett]

Mato and Mark:

The USDA shows the private grazing fee in Montana at $23.60/cow-calf pair in 2012. (http://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Montana/Publications/economic/prices/grazefee.htm)

 

[Glenn Hockett]

I have a copy of the now infamous Greenhorn MOU, if anyone wants a copy. Or if there is a way to post it here I would be happy to. I just don't know how to do that. The Greenhorn "agreement" has proven to be a complete failure. It was an attempt to please the local public land sheep growers and throw us a bone as far as a bighorn sheep transplant in the Greenhorn Mountains and only in the Greenhorn Mountains. The bighorns were not to leave the Greenhorn Range, which of course some have tried and some have been killed by the FWP for doing so. It is amazing that such an agreement was drafted and signed by FWP, USFS, BLM and the local woolgrowers, which use and trail their domestic sheep through a vast landscape of federal public lands and two FWP Wildlife Management Areas - The Blacktail WMA and the Robb-Ledford WMA. They graze their domestic sheep in the Gravelly Range for about 2 months, on or near Bighorn Mountain. How ironic and sad.

 

[RobG]

Once again, I would be happy to share our detailed comment letter with anyone looking to learn more about this issue of livestock use of WMAs.

My email address is [email protected] or you can call me at 586-1729

There is a ton of info in this letter!

 

[Mato]

So, am I getting this right. The private grazing fee is $23.60 and the BLM fee is $1.35? If I'm reading that then I'd say that the BLM fee is hardly fair market value. What do you guys think...?

 

[Glenn Hockett]

Mato:

You are reading that right. It is a complete rip-off. The Fleecer WMA grazing lease price, which is FWP State land, is $7.92, but for just a fraction of the livestock use (about 1/6th). The majority of the lease on Fleecer WMA is for free. A great deal for the livestock permittee.

 

[1_pointer]

So, am I getting this right. The private grazing fee is $23.60 and the BLM fee is $1.35? If I'm reading that then I'd say that the BLM fee is hardly fair market value. What do you guys think...?

Mark, please feel free to do a search on this site. The grazing fee discrepancy between private and public has been cussed, discussed, argued, and talk about quite a bit.

 

[sweetnectar]

Also, please note that grazing prices like the $23.60 vary per county, land condition etc. For example a WMA might demand more or less of a grazing fee depending on the terrain, type of vegetation, annual precipitation, water availability, fencing, and what ever can be negotiated with a cattleman in terms and conditions of the lease.

 

[RobG]

Also, please note that grazing prices like the $23.60 vary per county, land condition etc. For example a WMA might demand more or less of a grazing fee depending on the terrain, type of vegetation, annual precipitation, water availability, fencing, and what ever can be negotiated with a cattleman in terms and conditions of the lease.

"Free" is on the lower end of what I feel is fair market value.

 

[sweetnectar]

Ya it doesn't get any lower then free...until FWP starts paying someone to graze something for a week or two. Then it turn into a lawn care expense.

 

[1_pointer]

Ya it doesn't get any lower then free...until FWP starts paying someone to graze something for a week or two. Then it turn into a lawn care expense.

The UT DWR, USFS, and US Army have paid folks to graze in Utah. It's actually turned into a bit of a cottage industry. All the projects that I am aware of were either goat or sheep grazing and were done for either weed control or to fuel loading/fire suppresssion. If done correctly it can work pretty well. It's amazing what you can get goats or sheep to eat with a bit of portable fence and some supplement.

 

[RobG]

The UT DWR, USFS, and US Army have paid folks to graze in Utah. It's actually turned into a bit of a cottage industry. All the projects that I am aware of were either goat or sheep grazing and were done for either weed control or to fuel loading/fire suppresssion. If done correctly it can work pretty well. It's amazing what you can get goats or sheep to eat with a bit of portable fence and some supplement.

Many years ago I worked on a shock collar containment system with MSU so goats could eat leafy spurge. I don' t know why they don't use them on the hillsides around here... perhaps it doesn't work as well in uncontrolled circumstances. More often than not it seems like, unless they are monitored intensely, the programs just turn into a cost to us and a subsidy and a slide show about all the good the cattlemen are doing for the habitat.

If there really is a benefit then I don't have a big problem with the grazing... However I don't have a lot of faith in these government programs.

 

[1_pointer]

These folks use portable electric fences or the rubber/plastic snow fence to keep the goats where they want them for the time they want them there. It works quite well for some weeds. Haven't heard of it being used for leafy spurge, but if anybody knows these folks will know.

https://extension.usu.edu/BEHAVE/htm/principles

 

[RobG]

Maybe they didn't prove to be as effective against leafy spurge as originally thought (this was 24 years ago). What weeds are they currently used for?

 

[1_pointer]

I know they work well on thistles (all types) and sagebrush as I've seen the results. I'm sure folks have figured out some other weeds, but I've been out of the the targeted grazing circle for a while...

A quick internet search showed quite a few links to universities and gov agencies on the research and use of goats on leafy spurge.

 

[RobG]

I thought I'd throw this out there just so people can see how this works and get involved if they want to. The draft EA on Wall Creek is here: http://fwp.mt.gov/news/publicNotices/environmentalAssessments/acquisitionsTradesAndLeases/pn_0131.html

If you want to comment it needs to be done by Monday Mar. 18th.

You can find out what MFWP is doing on their public notice site: http://fwp.mt.gov/news/publicNotices/recent.html. This one might be a good one to check out occasionally. Every once in a while they take your comments seriously and in my opinion they do a pretty good job compared to other agencies.

I can't say I want to relive the part of my life where grazing really ticked my off, but regarding the Robb-Ledford WMA, did you guys know that sheep aren't grazed there (although cattle are)? They are just trailed through from the Gravelly allotments instead of being trucked around. So much for BH sheep there... Some ranchers were suggesting planing alfalfa on Robb-Ledofrd to keep the elk on the WMA instead of private land. Why don't they just leave some grass for them instead of using it to feed cattle? There I go, ticking myself off again

 

[MTFURY]

My Dad was the Range Technician for the Beaverhead-Deerlodge National Forest back in the 70's and 80's. He was in charge of dispersing the cattle on USFS land by keeping track of where the ranchers were grazing and to make sure nothing was overgrazed.
For years we have hunted the upper Ruby for elk, my Dad would always tell us boys to find where the cattle HAD grazed and go there and kill our elk. It has worked damn near every year for the last 40+ years.
As long as there is responsible grazing there will always be an improvement in elk habitat. If you take away the cattle or sheep the elk will soon follow to private property.