Grazing cattle on public land

[Elkmagnet]

I apologize and won't correct your spelling any more.

I'm not worried about it.

I appreciate your passion on the subject. It seems you are so far off to my right and shoot straight is so far off to the left that you can't hear each other and those left in the middle are probably the ones who are hearing everything correctly.

 

[Elkmagnet]

True or False Quiz:

If your competitor buys his supplies for a $1.35 and you refuse to pay such little and buy your supplies for $18 you are an idiot and will soon be out of business.

If you are a republican rancher that wines about welfare and your (Tester/democrat) competitor fills out an application and gets $2,000 and you refuse to fill out an application and get your $2,000 then you are an idiot and will soon be signing over your ranch to your competitor.

Cattle can damage a riparian zone.

Elk can damage a riparian zone.

Private lands provide clean air, water, and habitat.

Public lands provide clean air, water, and habitat.

Do you eat beef?

I don't think you have to be an idiot to stand for what you believe in when you will likely be hurt by doing so. History is full of great people who have done it.
Its the system that needs changed (don't hate the player hate the game)

 

[sweetnectar]

Heres a website that will shed a little light on the Republican Ranchers/Farmers who whine about welfare non-stop....maybe they should look in the fuggin' mirror every once in a while.

http://farm.ewg.org/region.php?fips=30000

Buzz, I used your site to look up Tester (Democrat) and Rehberg (Republican) and if they both received subsidies. They both got subsidies. So it isn't accurate to use a single party in your statement. Seems to me that both of them are smart or they would be giving their competition an advantage.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Buzz, I used your site to look up Tester (Democrat) and Rehberg (Republican) and if they both received subsidies. They both got subsidies. So it isn't accurate to use a single party in your statement. Seems to me that both of them are smart or they would be giving their competition an advantage.

Except one isn't calling for the elimination of entitlements while taking subsidies.

An interesting study done during the last legislative cycle:

http://www.thepolicyinstitute.org/web_report.pdf

BTW - I agree with the premise that people from both parties do it. That's not the issue for me. The issue is the hypocrisy that comes with telling everyone else that they should give up their subsidy while continuously looking for more.

 

[Nemont]

http://www.tester.senate.gov/Newsroom/20110615_gftrib_ethanol.cfm

Tester's voted against ethanol subsidies, which again I have no problem with but Tester sure doesn't seem to think paying wheat farmers is ineffecient or expensive.

None of this is either here nor there but to hang your hat on one party being hypocritical vs another is a fools game IMO.

Remember the most painful operation in the world is having your welfare cut off.

Ranchers should be out discussing reforming the system so that public lands more accurately reflect the market conditions with perhaps a discount for some of things public lands leases don't provide and private leases do provide. Especially given the current run up in cattle prices. Those who oppose public lands grazing should stop painting with a broad brush and find the good guys who do care about the condition of the land. Instead the divide drives the good stewards to support the poor ones because they are given no choice by the anti grazing crowd.

Nemont

 

[6speed]

Ranchers should be out discussing reforming the system so that public lands more accurately reflect the market conditions with perhaps a discount for some of things public lands leases don't provide and private leases do provide. Especially given the current run up in cattle prices. Those who oppose public lands grazing should stop painting with a broad brush and find the good guys who do care about the condition of the land. Instead the divide drives the good stewards to support the poor ones because they are given no choice by the anti grazing crowd.

Nemont

Ding! We have a winner.

 

[huntme]

Water tankes will not draw cows away from a natural stream water is the only a third of the reason they are at the stream. In arid climates they are on streams for water, shade and it is where the best feed is.
Elk do more damage than cattle? You lost all support with that claim.

In Idaho ranchers think that they are intitled to tags in the best hunting units because they don't allow hunting on there land so the animals flock there and they need antlered permits to scare the 100 elk cow/calves off. There is you're payment now quite complaining! If you don't want elk eating the grass join a public access hunting program ( access yes, walk in access areas,or any other program) or just called every hunter you know and tell them next season to bring a friend out to hunt your land. Problem solved!

well said,if you dont want elk on your property,let us hunters hunt them,without paying you money to do so,of course that would mean you can no longer charge 1500.00 or more to people to hunt on your land.

 

[Ben Lamb]

http://www.tester.senate.gov/Newsroom/20110615_gftrib_ethanol.cfm

Tester's voted against ethanol subsidies, which again I have no problem with but Tester sure doesn't seem to think paying wheat farmers is ineffecient or expensive.

None of this is either here nor there but to hang your hat on one party being hypocritical vs another is a fools game IMO.

Remember the most painful operation in the world is having your welfare cut off.

Ranchers should be out discussing reforming the system so that public lands more accurately reflect the market conditions with perhaps a discount for some of things public lands leases don't provide and private leases do provide. Especially given the current run up in cattle prices. Those who oppose public lands grazing should stop painting with a broad brush and find the good guys who do care about the condition of the land. Instead the divide drives the good stewards to support the poor ones because they are given no choice by the anti grazing crowd.

Nemont

Agreed. However, I said entitlements, not subsidies.

 

[BuzzH]

Sweetnectar (and Nemont),

I dont have a problem with the subsidies...I understand the value of CRP and all the rest.

The problem I have is listening to a rancher (most of whom wave an "R" flag out front) whine his ever loving ass off that the reason we're in debt is because their single-mother-of two-neighbor is "on welfare"...and "getting food stamps" and how we need to "reform welfare".

They arent wanting THEIR welfare cut, or even reformed...they're wanting everyone elses cut (like Nemont stated).

Its pretty hypocritical to want to cut others welfare...while signing the back of your own welfare check.

Just sayin'...

 

[shoots-straight]

I don't think you have to be an idiot to stand for what you believe in when you will likely be hurt by doing so. History is full of great people who have done it.
Its the system that needs changed (don't hate the player hate the game)

Just thought I'd ask a question. Where do you think I sit on grazing public lands? Because I never said one way or the other. I said I was pissed about ranchers getting rid of my elk, and then grazing their cattle on the public lands like they own it.

You want to get rid of my elk, then I want your cattle off my public land. It's that simple.

Now I'd like the ranchers from this argument to go and answer the questions I asked in the new thread.

Lets see where everyone stands, and if there's any common ground to work on.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Just thought I'd ask a question. Where do you think I sit on grazing public lands? Because I never said one way or the other. I said I was pissed about ranchers getting rid of my elk, and then grazing their cattle on the public lands like they own it.

You want to get rid of my elk, then I want your cattle off my public land. It's that simple.

Now I'd like the ranchers from this argument to go and answer the questions I asked in the new thread.

Lets see where everyone stands, and if there's any common ground to work on.

I think you answered you're own question and I agree with that statement.

 

[bjtc_brian]

Just thought I'd ask a question. Where do you think I sit on grazing public lands? Because I never said one way or the other. I said I was pissed about ranchers getting rid of my elk, and then grazing their cattle on the public lands like they own it.

You want to get rid of my elk, then I want your cattle off my public land. It's that simple.

Now I'd like the ranchers from this argument to go and answer the questions I asked in the new thread.

Lets see where everyone stands, and if there's any common ground to work on.

SS, when are you going to answer the questions you posted? Funny thing about all this hooplah, is that I bet we are not far from having the same answers on the questions.

 

[bjtc_brian]

In Idaho ranchers think that they are intitled to tags in the best hunting units because they don't allow hunting on there land so the animals flock there and they need antlered permits to scare the 100 elk cow/calves off. There is you're payment now quite complaining! If you don't want elk eating the grass join a public access hunting program ( access yes, walk in access areas,or any other program) or just called every hunter you know and tell them next season to bring a friend out to hunt your land. Problem solved!

Not quite problem solved. Unfortunately hunting seasons are a minimal part of the year.

 

[shoots-straight]

SS, when are you going to answer the questions you posted? Funny thing about all this hooplah, is that I bet we are not far from having the same answers on the questions.

When we get enough involved for the discussion to really perk. It's the combative nature of the issue that clouds the perception of the answer.

 

[Nemont]

Sweetnectar (and Nemont),

I dont have a problem with the subsidies...I understand the value of CRP and all the rest.

The problem I have is listening to a rancher (most of whom wave an "R" flag out front) whine his ever loving ass off that the reason we're in debt is because their single-mother-of two-neighbor is "on welfare"...and "getting food stamps" and how we need to "reform welfare".

They arent wanting THEIR welfare cut, or even reformed...they're wanting everyone elses cut (like Nemont stated).

Its pretty hypocritical to want to cut others welfare...while signing the back of your own welfare check.

Just sayin'...

I agree, however apparently there are alot of ranchers and farmers in Montana that vote for the D's as well, how else to you explain that both of our Senators are from that side of the aisle as is our govenor? Looking at either Senator's voting record it would be difficult to see the difference from the way an R would vote. Just saying.

If we soley want to talk about which political positions can be called hypocritical then we could use up all of Randy's bandwidth and both sides would be well represented.

Nemont

 

[BuzzH]

Nemont,

I dont disagree with you a bit on any of that post...

My main point is...if those signing welfare checks are going to scream about welfare being the nations problems...and they want welfare reform. Well, lets just say I have a very good place for them to start when they head down that road.

 

[bjtc_brian]

2nd Your opinion seems biased on the subject and the information your present doesn't seem factual.

This is not just pointed at elkmagnet, but everyone on this forum or anyone who reads this thread.

My father is 62 years old(63 in a few days) and still runs our ranch almost single handedly. He has been working on our ranch(mostly minus some military and other years but still working on a ranch) since my grandparents bought it when he was 10 years old. Now I'm talking back breaking, hand blisterting type of work. He is still one of the few people that uses horses for gathering cattle. Not only for himself, but for other ranching families in the area. He has had many, many second jobs to support a family, including a guide(not an outfitter) for quite some time, a miner, a janitor, a horse shoer, and many more. All of this while being a supportive son, faithful and loving husband, great dad(and yes, I got my fair share of spankings, but not one I didn't deserve) of three, and an amazing grandfather of 6. This is where I get a lot of my information from. He is way more knowledagle than any report, any survey, any study that has been done! Hands down. No, I am not saying he is right 100% of the time, no person is. And yes, he and I get into some extreme arguments. But, he has 50 some years in the field doing studies, and reports and surveys on a daily basis 7 days a week 52 weeks a year(for the most part, very few vacations in my family). There is NO person in the world I respect and admire more than him. And you will have to do some serious convincing to prove to me lots of the things I know are wrong. Trust me, I am the type of person to try to do that, even with my father. Not many times to I catch him with misinformation. He is well liked and a person many others come to for information. Now, for some on here to throw out some of the statements they do, that tries to discredit what my father and for that matter, my grandfather, and great grandfathers and so on. I am going to take it very, very personally! And yes, I am going to be biased on the situation. Tell me how you would feel if someone did this to your family? Show me any hunter/sportsman that has this kind of history of knowledge? Remember this when throwing out hated words. Farmers and ranchers have this as their livelyhood, their job, their life. Hunters, sportsman, recreationalists, etc. , this is their hobby(for the most part, I understand there are some on here that have wildlife livelihoods). Not many are being paid for their hunting experience. The most successful on this site, Big Fin, still has his own CPA firm! Take some of these things into account before you decide to be a keyboard cowboy!

 

[mtlion]

I didn't read it too long, got bored.

 

[Elkmagnet]

This is not just pointed at elkmagnet, but everyone on this forum or anyone who reads this thread.

My father is 62 years old(63 in a few days) and still runs our ranch almost single handedly. He has been working on our ranch(mostly minus some military and other years but still working on a ranch) since my grandparents bought it when he was 10 years old. Now I'm talking back breaking, hand blisterting type of work. He is still one of the few people that uses horses for gathering cattle. Not only for himself, but for other ranching families in the area. He has had many, many second jobs to support a family, including a guide(not an outfitter) for quite some time, a miner, a janitor, a horse shoer, and many more. All of this while being a supportive son, faithful and loving husband, great dad(and yes, I got my fair share of spankings, but not one I didn't deserve) of three, and an amazing grandfather of 6. This is where I get a lot of my information from. He is way more knowledagle than any report, any survey, any study that has been done! Hands down. No, I am not saying he is right 100% of the time, no person is. And yes, he and I get into some extreme arguments. But, he has 50 some years in the field doing studies, and reports and surveys on a daily basis 7 days a week 52 weeks a year(for the most part, very few vacations in my family). There is NO person in the world I respect and admire more than him. And you will have to do some serious convincing to prove to me lots of the things I know are wrong. Trust me, I am the type of person to try to do that, even with my father. Not many times to I catch him with misinformation. He is well liked and a person many others come to for information. Now, for some on here to throw out some of the statements they do, that tries to discredit what my father and for that matter, my grandfather, and great grandfathers and so on. I am going to take it very, very personally! And yes, I am going to be biased on the situation. Tell me how you would feel if someone did this to your family? Show me any hunter/sportsman that has this kind of history of knowledge? Remember this when throwing out hated words. Farmers and ranchers have this as their livelyhood, their job, their life. Hunters, sportsman, recreationalists, etc. , this is their hobby(for the most part, I understand there are some on here that have wildlife livelihoods). Not many are being paid for their hunting experience. The most successful on this site, Big Fin, still has his own CPA firm! Take some of these things into account before you decide to be a keyboard cowboy!

Well my daddy saysford trucks are better than Dodge!

Bias opinion thanks for confirming.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Cry me a river...

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I would bet almost every person on this board has a father. And, hopefully, most of us had good fathers, and, likely many of them raised us. Luckily, some of them raised us to think for ourselves and to understand that just because something was done 50 years ago does not make it right or better.

50 years ago (and 40 and 30 and 20) years ago Welfare Ranchers were destroying My Public Lands at an alarming rate. We were adding more and more animals to the endangered species list. hunters and anglers were losing more and more opportunities and, even worse, our children were NEVER going to have opportunities on My Public Lands because of abuse by Welfare Ranchers.

About 20 years ago, a few "whack-o environmentalists" started realizing that all of the work arounds in the world would not be able to overcome the damage done to My Public Lands by Welfare Ranchers. So, what started with a few people in Idaho became a few more, and then a few hunters and anglers joined up (likely after stopping the Air Force from bombing Wild Sheep in the Owyhees) that many found we were all working for the same objective..

And, from the efforts of a lot of volunteer efforts in the field and in the courtrooms, victories and improvements started happening to benefit My Public Lands. When I first joined this site, very few had even heard the term Welfare Ranchers, and after much education, many more hunters now understand the scheme of Welfare Rancheing in the west on the backs of hunters, anglers, schoolchildren, and taxpayers. Now, many hunters understand how damaging cattle are on My Public Lands to our wildlife..

I would suggest that EVERY improvement on MyPublic Lands has come from the efforts of a few people who were willing to drag the Forest Circus and the Bureau of Livestock &Mining into courts to force them to comply with the laws passed by Congress. And yes, a lot of Welfare Ranchers have spent a lot of time cussing "environmentalists" while drinking coffee and eating pie at the local diner. The smart ones have figured out the writing on the wall and have started to change, the stubborn ones have made statements about "50 years and 7 days a week doing barstool range management studies".

There is nothing romantic nor unique about wearing a set of chaps at 6am and pushing cows around for 12 hours. Been there, done that, and can do it anytime I want. There is no entitlement to that lifestyle at the expense of the opportunities for my kids, and someday, my grand kids to be able to enjoy My Public Lands. Times have changed and the smart ranchers are evolving, the not so smart ones are resisting and working with ass-clown congressmen like Raul Labrador to try and entrench Welfare Ranching for another 20 years.

Welfare Ranchers have two choices, change or become extinct. Interesting to watch their decisions..