Grazing cattle on public land

[1_pointer]

I know, just stating how many permittees feel. Is there a value on permit when selling a ranch?

All depends on if they are selling the base property. Still, they are not selling the permit, just the preference! I know, it's really all semantics...

Re: Commercial Enterprises; is that for wind energy or all? I'm surprised that it is the case, but can see how that could happen.

 

[sweetnectar]

I love it when the "subsidy finger" gets pointed around by the usual dbags on this and a few other sites. Gets me to thinking.... How much do all you "sportsmen" pay to use public land? What would comparable cost on private lands be? Does the Forest Svc, BLM, etc. make or lose taxpayer money managing recreation? If you own the public wildlife, does the public pay all costs associated them? Was there a group of cowboy bullies that use to roam Missoula and the Root giving wedgies to shoot straight and Buzz? Never seen grown men with such a hard on against someone.....

If we really did the math I'm sure we would be really supprised.

I agree with pointer it is all about management. Cattle can be a great tool to improve land conditions or an overgrazing land killer depending on how they are used. All the national forest I hunted the last two years had grazing and they did a fine job of managment as far as how much grass they took...looks like they took 50% of the grass and left 50%. I'm guessing they didn't take care of weeds on the NF but took care of them on their own private. Kind of like how I wipe up the pee when my 3 boys miss the toilet in my own home but I'm not touching the stuff on the floor in the gas station.

 

[whyelkhunt]

I love it when the "subsidy finger" gets pointed around by the usual dbags on this and a few other sites. Gets me to thinking.... How much do all you "sportsmen" pay to use public land? What would comparable cost on private lands be? Does the Forest Svc, BLM, etc. make or lose taxpayer money managing recreation? If you own the public wildlife, does the public pay all costs associated them? Was there a group of cowboy bullies that use to roam Missoula and the Root giving wedgies to shoot straight and Buzz? Never seen grown men with such a hard on against someone.....

Well Played, now we have welfare hunters and welfare ranchers. I farm but have seen the other side too. The cowboy in CO.unit 25 who seemed to be driving an endless supply of cattle thru an area to keep the elk on the private land. Two beef bulls fighting over the last blade of grass on the Grand Mesa. The sheep that had the grass shorter than my lawn, and the worst was getting water out of a stream only to find a dead beef cow upsream.

 

[fiveptbill]

I love it when the "subsidy finger" gets pointed around by the usual dbags on this and a few other sites. Gets me to thinking.... How much do all you "sportsmen" pay to use public land? What would comparable cost on private lands be? Does the Forest Svc, BLM, etc. make or lose taxpayer money managing recreation? If you own the public wildlife, does the public pay all costs associated them? Was there a group of cowboy bullies that use to roam Missoula and the Root giving wedgies to shoot straight and Buzz? Never seen grown men with such a hard on against someone.....

Here is the rub with that comment. That land is our land and we have a right to use it and that does mean everyone. The difference is that most of us are not using it for profit unlike the ranchers. Ask Fin about the cost to try to make a profit off filming in the national forest. If I go up and film a hunt for broadcast it costs me 150 dollars a day to do that. That is the same cost it is to run a hundred cattle for a month. I have a huge issue with ranchers that make a profit off using public land and then bitch about the damage that wildlife does to their property.

 

[shoots-straight]

I love it when the "subsidy finger" gets pointed around by the usual dbags on this and a few other sites. Gets me to thinking.... How much do all you "sportsmen" pay to use public land? What would comparable cost on private lands be? Does the Forest Svc, BLM, etc. make or lose taxpayer money managing recreation? If you own the public wildlife, does the public pay all costs associated them? Was there a group of cowboy bullies that use to roam Missoula and the Root giving wedgies to shoot straight and Buzz? Never seen grown men with such a hard on against someone.....

Do you understand what a subsidy is? By your post I'd say no. If individuals aren't paying fair market value for something, and tax payers are picking up the rest of the costs, that's a subsidy. The timber industry is subsidised too. Do you know what fair market system means? How about the tax paying private land rancher, that runs their cattle entirely on ground they own, or lease? Do you think it's fair for them to compete with public land ranchers that get their grazing costs for next to nothing.

Sportsman pay as much, as fisherman, picnickers, backpackers, photographers, recreational miners, etc. Our taxes pay for what maintenance there is.
We don't make money off the resource. Those that do, pay a fee (outfitters, guys like Big Fin etc) The key there is profit from the land. There's are far better lands to hunt on private, that we pay nothing for. The really good leased lands go to outfitters.

If the public lands were enhanced for wildlife, and maintained exclusively for them, Then lets dream that Ranchers decided to quit bitching and let our wildlife alone, I'd probably pay a fee to use that ground. We already pay to use the state ground. We also pay to use private through block. So what was your point again?
The costs for wildlife management are paid for by the state through our tag sales. The public only pays for animals that are under special management, like wolves were.

Cattle on the other hand, take fencing, administration costs, range rehab, range maintenance. Besides the fact that your providing unfair competition between those that graze public lands, and those that don't.

I'm a contractor, if all the materials where given to my competition for a 10Th what I pay, I would be furious. Is that fair?

Explain how running cattle on public lands isn't a subsidy. How $1.35 per AUM compared to $18 per AUM on private isn't a subsidy. Explain why tax payers should pick up the tab for the maintenance on those lands for the damage done by the cattle. If your a rancher you know there's plenty of range maintenance to take care of year in and year out.

Ask Big Fin how much he pays to film on public lands. Nothing he does requires maintenance. His actions don't pollute our water, the ground, erode river banks, etc.

I don't make a profit off of the use of public lands. All of us, whether your a backpacker, photographer, camper, hunter, bike rider, and others use our public lands to recreate on equally. Some do require more maintenance than others. ATV's cause a lot of damage that we all pay for. I think there's a place for them too. Just not running amok, and they should pay for the maintenance, not me.

What costs are there associated with me hunting on public lands? There's law enforcement of public lands for illegal ATV use, that should be picked up by taxes on those type of vehicles. There's road maintenance, but we all pay taxes on our vehicles.

Toss me a bone there dude. Where is that even close to the same?

All these things I said are true, but another thing that pisses me off, about the ranching community, it the entitlement they seem to have. That their industry comes before everyone Else's. That the 2% of the cattle raised on public lands is the most important part of our economy. That, even though they have a huge impact on wildlife.

The shear arrogance shown by yourself, and many in the industry as a whole, is incomprehensible. It's OK for your livestock to graze my public lands down, but when my elk get on your private lands, the Dept is called up and there's a complaint filed.
That your industry is so paranoid my wildlife will compete with your cattle that you legislate laws to have my wildlife reduced to a fraction of what they where. That beef is more important than hunting Industry. That you push for more legislation to keep Bison from being re populated because of a disease that your beef gave to them in the first place. That even though there's a herd that's been in quarantine for 5 years, that's not good enough for your industry.

That your industry promoted bill after bill in the last legislative session in Montana, to privatise wildlife, control the Dept. and stop land acquisitions for the hunting public, even though we have paid into a fund to do so. Hypocrisy, is what it is. Even if a private individual wants to sell his lands to us, your industry doesn't want that to happen.

Lets talk about public land access. Your industry UPOM, wants to pass laws to keep the public off our streams. They want to close roads that the public has used for generations. They don't want people to hope corners because you might invade their frickin air space. For Christs sake, we wouldn't want that. But run your beef all over my elks habitat, making it not fit for them is OK.

Are you following me here, or have I lost your interest. If your industry doesn't want to be attacked for grazing my public lands. Then maybe your industry needs to clean itself up on those other issues. Seems that's not going to happen though, I've already seen a preview of up and coming legislation they intend to run again.

Actually I've never been beat up by a cowboy, ran with a few. I have quit a few rancher friends, and they don't complain about wildlife, they believe their an asset. They aren't near as arrogant as you either.

Cheers

Robert

 

[1_pointer]

Explain how running cattle on public lands isn't a subsidy. How $1.35 per AUM compared to $18 per AUM on private isn't a subsidy. Explain why tax payers should pick up the tab for the maintenance on those lands for the damage done by the cattle. If your a rancher you know there's plenty of range maintenance to take care of year in and year out.

What do you mean by the year in, year out maintenace costs?

 

[Big Shooter]

Wow! Reading this thread just brought back so many warm and fuzzy memories
jmcd.....I like your style!

 

[BuzzH]

Ahhh yes, right on cue...Big Shooter.

How many of "your" cattle did hunters shoot this year? Just curious what the final tally was.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Yeppers, we need to give credit to the Welfare Ranchers for the money and expense they incur on maintaining fences on My Public Lands....

And we all know the cattle from Welfare Ranchers don't stay near the streams to eat....

 

[shoots-straight]

What do you mean by the year in, year out maintenace costs?

Is it that hard to understand? Every year there's maintenance that respective public land agencies do because the effects grazing have on the land. Fencing, stream bank restoration projects, weed maintenance. Are you insinuating that doesn't take place?

 

[tjones]

That second pic looks like an elk wallow to me Jose!

 

[Dinkshooter]

That second pic looks like an elk wallow to me Jose!

You must be from Texas

 

[tjones]

I am assuming your picture is to point out that the cattle are damaging the stream beds. For one, Elk do way more damage to stream beds than cattle do. There are many studies done on this. If you don't believe it, just look at the difference in the way cows and elk are. Elk use water sources(stream beds) to wallow in. This is due their bodies temperature rising when they are in the "Rut". Cows don't go through a rut, hence they don't damage the area like an elk. Unless cows are being pushed, I have very rarely seen them do anything other than walk up, take a drink, and walk back.

Texas, Montana,,its all the same.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Texas, Montana,,its all the same.

He is also concerned with high nitrogen levels when fish shit in the creeks and rivers. If we could just get rid of the Elk off My Public Lands, they would not be exposed to the damage created by wild critters walking, shitting, and living.

 

[bjtc_brian]

Jose,
Better blame this one on the cows. I bet they just pushed him right down in there.

Him too!

Holy Cow or Bull another one!

And I am sure these elk will never have to cross a stream. I mean with their hovering ablity.

Deffinitely cows fault here.

I have no idea why I would have thought anything but cows cause damage to a stream bed. Jose, your vague pictures have me convinced. COWS are definitely the culprit!

 

[1_pointer]

Is it that hard to understand? Every year there's maintenance that respective public land agencies do because the effects grazing have on the land. Fencing, stream bank restoration projects, weed maintenance. Are you insinuating that doesn't take place?

First off, I didn't insinuate a thing, I asked a question as I was unclear of what you meant. New fencing may be paid for by the government, but maintenance of fencing very rarely is IME.

Not sure what weed "maintenance" is, but I know that the agencies often times try to kill them...

I am very aware of what takes place in the management of grazing on public lands.

 

[tjones]

Dude you need to learn the difference between a wallow and a stream.

 

[Big Shooter]

BuzzH.....none this year, but thanks for asking. I appreciate your concern. I actually do enjoy reading this thread due to the fact that we don't run on any public ground, just private. The other reason I enjoy reading it is to watch you blow the f#$@ up and throw your sucker in the dirt. Come on now Buzzy....keep an open mind on this. I know a lot of people that run on public ground for low cost and I sure don't hold it against them. They have some rules and regulations to follow and private land ranchers don't. Simple enough. Open mind man.....open mind.

The whole "Welfare Rancher" term gets pretty old though. I always took you for a beef eater, guess I was wrong.

 

[bjtc_brian]

Well, I have seen elk wallow right in the middle of a stream just as this elk is. That water is flowing! So, just cause the stream is in the woods and an elk is standing in it doesn't mean it is no longer a stream.

 

[huntme]

well i am not a rancher,but i do eat beef,and i will tell all of you ranchers strait out,if the cow gets in the way of me elk hunting,then the side of beef i will have in my freezer,will be on you,in oregon cows need to be gone out of public land before we hunt,or they will most likely end up in someones freezer.
and after 9 days of hard hunting,and not seeing ,finding,or even hearing a elk,the big fat cow starts looking good at that point.