noharleyyet
Well-known member
Good campaign rhetoric....or equitible constituent representation?
Fewer NR licenses in NM?
- Thread starter noharleyyet
- Start date
nmtaxi
Active member
I sure would like to see the 12% outfitter tags go away, and an increase to the non-guided to around 15%. I wouldn't even mind 20%, just get rid of the outfitter tags.
fowladdict
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,561
I hope it is the outfitter tags they cut...some of them don't even get filled.
highmountian
New member
Fowladdict1, that is very true. I am just glad I drew this year so at least I got to hunt there!! I sure hope to hut there again in the near future!!
bobbydean
Well-known member
New Mexico native. 30 years plus of loaning my money to NMFG without drawing an elk tag! Some success on other species.
Outfitters tags should be eliminated!
I do not have problem with nonresident tags. Most hunting areas in New Mexico are NATIONAL forest. The nonresident has just as much right as I do and it is definitely the money source for NMGF.
The other major problem is the antelope draw. Vast majority of tags are give to ranchers to sell. The draw may be for 100 tags in a game unit to be filled but 80 are given to ranchers. The sad part is that many of those tags are not used.
Sour grapes! But I have really enjoyed the hunting I have been allowed to participate in.
Outfitters tags should be eliminated!
I do not have problem with nonresident tags. Most hunting areas in New Mexico are NATIONAL forest. The nonresident has just as much right as I do and it is definitely the money source for NMGF.
The other major problem is the antelope draw. Vast majority of tags are give to ranchers to sell. The draw may be for 100 tags in a game unit to be filled but 80 are given to ranchers. The sad part is that many of those tags are not used.
Sour grapes! But I have really enjoyed the hunting I have been allowed to participate in.
Thanks for posting this, a lot of people should post answers to his survey. So many people that have such strong opinions that are misinformed, or not well read people (including Senator Munoz here).
Not trying to bash him below just take away the skew of this article and survey, and present some more facts. Hope Senator Munoz gets his facts straight before introducing bills before legislature.
Quote from Senator Munoz survey "Some of my best memories are with my father and family out hunting, and I want to make sure that New Mexico families are able to pass on this tradition."
-what does memories/tradition have to do with NM wildlife biology, health or current environmental conditions ?? If you want larger populations, more tags, you might want to talk to the biologist from your fish and game about current habitat, health, population, and weather conditions, etc.
"I am drafting legislation to improve the odds of any resident hunter applying for a big game license in the big game draw–and I would like your input on how this legislation should look. Right now, New Mexico guarantees fewer hunting licenses for our residents than any other western state. I believe that this needs to change, and I’d like to know what you think as well."
-Not correct, Colorado and Wyoming offer a lower percentag to its residents. And in most US states, non residents can buy tags OTC, mostly not limited at all. Its one persons jobs to try and improve odds for resident?? What are the odds, do you know ? Last year NM residents actually received 80.5 % of antelope tags, 83.4% of deer tags, 80.5% of elk tags, 84.4% of Oryx tags, 87.4% of turkey tags, and 81.1% of bear tags drawn in standard drawing. The guided outfitter tags usually do not receive their 12% limit unless in trophy units. Think a lot more people should read the odds report before applying. Have a buddy in NM who has drawn 7 yrs in a row. And i always meet people who tell me they haven't drawn a tag in 15-20 yrs, then they tell me they apply to best unit, early rifle, less than 1% chance, lol.
"Right across the border in Arizona, and in other western states such as Montana, Idaho and Utah, residents are guaranteed a straight 90 percent of hunting licenses in the big game draw, and all other public lands states in the west also guarantee residents a larger share of limited licenses than New Mexico."
- Because the neighbors/Billy's dad lets him go it why won't you let me go... Just because other states offer a lower percentage doesn't mean its a good idea.
-So i hope a lot of people take the survey and i don't thing much will be done about it. The system seems to work fairly well as is, NM outfitter assoc is pretty strong from my understanding and NR probably aren't ever going to get increases. I lean towards an increase in NR tags in quite a few states, but i just play the game and apply and see what happens.
Met an archery hunter in NM this year that told me that NR get 45% of NM tags, and i told him the facts; system 10% NR, 12 % guided NR, etc. Then he said i was forgetting about the landowners tags sold to NR. Statistics i can't find but he could buy the tag the same as me for asking price. He said they were way expensive like it was my fault what things cost, just cracked me up. The guy was also carrying around different types of arrows in his quiver... And i had to tell him he was camped next to a water tanks which the elk were using, not smart for hunting and illegal... No stereotyping, just one of many from this year. I got to enjoy NM for the 3rd time in 11 years, one antelope and two elk, all archery, hopefully not the last time.
take care, Fish
Not trying to bash him below just take away the skew of this article and survey, and present some more facts. Hope Senator Munoz gets his facts straight before introducing bills before legislature.
Quote from Senator Munoz survey "Some of my best memories are with my father and family out hunting, and I want to make sure that New Mexico families are able to pass on this tradition."
-what does memories/tradition have to do with NM wildlife biology, health or current environmental conditions ?? If you want larger populations, more tags, you might want to talk to the biologist from your fish and game about current habitat, health, population, and weather conditions, etc.
"I am drafting legislation to improve the odds of any resident hunter applying for a big game license in the big game draw–and I would like your input on how this legislation should look. Right now, New Mexico guarantees fewer hunting licenses for our residents than any other western state. I believe that this needs to change, and I’d like to know what you think as well."
-Not correct, Colorado and Wyoming offer a lower percentag to its residents. And in most US states, non residents can buy tags OTC, mostly not limited at all. Its one persons jobs to try and improve odds for resident?? What are the odds, do you know ? Last year NM residents actually received 80.5 % of antelope tags, 83.4% of deer tags, 80.5% of elk tags, 84.4% of Oryx tags, 87.4% of turkey tags, and 81.1% of bear tags drawn in standard drawing. The guided outfitter tags usually do not receive their 12% limit unless in trophy units. Think a lot more people should read the odds report before applying. Have a buddy in NM who has drawn 7 yrs in a row. And i always meet people who tell me they haven't drawn a tag in 15-20 yrs, then they tell me they apply to best unit, early rifle, less than 1% chance, lol.
"Right across the border in Arizona, and in other western states such as Montana, Idaho and Utah, residents are guaranteed a straight 90 percent of hunting licenses in the big game draw, and all other public lands states in the west also guarantee residents a larger share of limited licenses than New Mexico."
- Because the neighbors/Billy's dad lets him go it why won't you let me go... Just because other states offer a lower percentage doesn't mean its a good idea.
-So i hope a lot of people take the survey and i don't thing much will be done about it. The system seems to work fairly well as is, NM outfitter assoc is pretty strong from my understanding and NR probably aren't ever going to get increases. I lean towards an increase in NR tags in quite a few states, but i just play the game and apply and see what happens.
Met an archery hunter in NM this year that told me that NR get 45% of NM tags, and i told him the facts; system 10% NR, 12 % guided NR, etc. Then he said i was forgetting about the landowners tags sold to NR. Statistics i can't find but he could buy the tag the same as me for asking price. He said they were way expensive like it was my fault what things cost, just cracked me up. The guy was also carrying around different types of arrows in his quiver... And i had to tell him he was camped next to a water tanks which the elk were using, not smart for hunting and illegal... No stereotyping, just one of many from this year. I got to enjoy NM for the 3rd time in 11 years, one antelope and two elk, all archery, hopefully not the last time.
take care, Fish
yes a lot of residents look at the NR percentage and calculate the land owner tags in that any resident could buy just as well. but all said and done, i think the outfitter set aside tags should be the first thing to be eliminated. I like the idea of raising the NR unguided portion and eliminating the outfitter portion for fairness sake. the land owner tags is a different battle but that is seperate from any NR issue as all residents can buy them just as well.
enorm
New member
No matter how you look at it or who paid for what, approximately 70% of all antelope permits went to non-resident hunters.
And who's fault is that? Regardless, it is not a nonresident issue, that lope tags could have been bought by residents but the same reason that nonresident tags are so costly is the same reason nonresident had so many of the lope tags. You guys are trying to rely on nonresidents to flip the tab for you. No matter the state, when only the ones who can pay the high price of tags go hunting bad things happen. Rich clientel breeds outfitter growth, and the whole thing goes in a bad direction. Sheep tags are 3k in NM for nonres, why do you think there is so many tags going to nonres percentage wise?
WapitiBob
Well-known member
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WapitiBob
Well-known member
The more posts I read about NM hunting the more I realize just how little the residents know of their system and how it works.
If a nm resident complains he has not. Drawn an elk tag in 20 years I roll my eyes. Stop putting in for the premium units and go hunt already. You can't put in for rifle seargent, valle vadal, and gila and complain you don't draw. I look at odds, and there is plenty chances to draw if your willing to hunt.
As far as lope tags, complain not about the 70% the nonres get and more why the land owners get so many tags. They get as many or more than they have to allow to hunt their ranch. Make it one in 5 ratio and put the tags back in the draw and your odds would double. Keep the LO tags the same and cut the nonres quota to 10% and you know what you will have, 60% of the lope tags to the nonresident. I am trying to help you nm guys out, whining about nonres buying thr LO lope tags and getting 70% overall does nothing for your cause. Also, why is the ranch only LO elk tags? That helps you guys in no way
As far as lope tags, complain not about the 70% the nonres get and more why the land owners get so many tags. They get as many or more than they have to allow to hunt their ranch. Make it one in 5 ratio and put the tags back in the draw and your odds would double. Keep the LO tags the same and cut the nonres quota to 10% and you know what you will have, 60% of the lope tags to the nonresident. I am trying to help you nm guys out, whining about nonres buying thr LO lope tags and getting 70% overall does nothing for your cause. Also, why is the ranch only LO elk tags? That helps you guys in no way
nmtaxi
Active member
Schmalts, first I agree with you about the LO tags. That's really where the residents are getting screwed. That whole system does not work. More of those tags need to go in the draw. That will help the odds much more than taking away from NR. There are some units in WY that have more buck tags than the whole state of NM. But as far as drawing a bull elk tag, if I put in for some of the worst units, I'm still looking at most a 25% chance of drawing. Look at the odds. I do all the time. And with no preferance points involved, you could easily go a lot of years without drawing. But like you said, fixing the LO system is really the first step in solving that problem. I've got no problem with NR getting a decent share.
enorm
New member
I agree with everything that has been said. It boils down to the money, and game and fish needs the non-resident money to keep the department going. Most people only look at the draw hunts and the number of permits, but a high number of permits never make it to the draw system. These are given to the landowner to use how he wishes. Game and fish will need to find another source of revenue to supplement their income or things will never change. I believe our non-resident permits are inline with most states, until you figure in the landowner and the outfitters. Most people in general cannot afford the prices they are asking for these hunts. I know I always have the option to purchase a landowner permit. How many of you pay $2500 and up for a permit in you state? That is why I cannot purchase a landowner permit in my own state.
NMtaxi, when they proposed a wait period last year if you drew a lope or premium tag most guys did not like it, what gives? Would you be for a preference point system? I would, but that was not on that poll Munoz made. Get a handle on the LO tags and odds will change. Look how many LO tags for elk are offered alone. Works out great for nonres guys though. But, res hunters need to be prepared to pay more for those tags to compensate the lost revenue from the loss of those tags.
I have seen bull tags on craigslist for $750, they are out there. May not be a premium unit but an option. In. Fact, there is a pair of unit 53 bull tags on there right now for $1500. For a resident, that is the same as I would pay if I drew the tags in the draw... most guys won't hunt 53 because of lower elk numbers, I would in a heartbeat before I sat home
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nmtaxi
Active member
To be honest Schmalts, I would be in favor of people having to sit out one year for drawing any rifle or muzzie bull tag, and two years for a premium muzzie or rifle tag. And a two year wait on antelope. The archery hunters were the ones really against it, because they can draw almost every year. If that's the case, they can keep it the way they like it. I would love to be able to draw a decent elk tag every 2-3 years. Guess I have to start archery hunting.
Now, here's what has really damaged the odds in NM - the way the drawing is preformed. 10 or 12 years ago, you would put in your 3 choices, and they would have a seperate drawing for each choice. People knew to put their best choice as first, and then pick lesser hunts on the next choices. Now, they draw your app and see if anything on your app is open. You can draw a premium hunt on your 3rd choice. People are putting in all three choices on premium tags. 10-12 years ago, I could pull a good elk tag every other year. Since then, I've pulled on muzzie tag in that 10-12 year time frame. That's it. And I'm not putting in for only primo tags. If they change the system to how it was before, when they come to your app, you have a much better chance of drawing your first or even second choice because everybody in front of you hasn't already had three shots at your tag.
Now, here's what has really damaged the odds in NM - the way the drawing is preformed. 10 or 12 years ago, you would put in your 3 choices, and they would have a seperate drawing for each choice. People knew to put their best choice as first, and then pick lesser hunts on the next choices. Now, they draw your app and see if anything on your app is open. You can draw a premium hunt on your 3rd choice. People are putting in all three choices on premium tags. 10-12 years ago, I could pull a good elk tag every other year. Since then, I've pulled on muzzie tag in that 10-12 year time frame. That's it. And I'm not putting in for only primo tags. If they change the system to how it was before, when they come to your app, you have a much better chance of drawing your first or even second choice because everybody in front of you hasn't already had three shots at your tag.
NMtaxi, that draw system changed only 8 years ago as you described, i remember that well because many did not know it happened and i put in for Valle Vadal Archery that year first choice and drew. If it had not changed I would have not put in for such a tag for my first choice because it would have lowered my odds of drawing any tag at all. But even at the old draw system many did not draw because they put in for the premium tags only. I knew some residents that drew 7 out of 8 years for 16A archery and then after the draw change they have only drawn once. the system that was good for them is now bad and vice versa.
IMO the best you guys can do is get a hold of the LO tags situation and be more prudent with your choices for elk hunts. Elk tags will always be hard to get but just looking at nonresident numbers will not get you as far as the LO numbers. Once again, i would love to have those unit 53 bull tags in my pocket but I am out of fly miles and the wife has put her foot down with 3 trips gone and one more to go in December.
IMO the best you guys can do is get a hold of the LO tags situation and be more prudent with your choices for elk hunts. Elk tags will always be hard to get but just looking at nonresident numbers will not get you as far as the LO numbers. Once again, i would love to have those unit 53 bull tags in my pocket but I am out of fly miles and the wife has put her foot down with 3 trips gone and one more to go in December.
Tanglefoot
New member
Montana is trying to pass a similar type of bill. There won't be anymore guaranteed outfitter tags per our bill. Personnally.... I like it. The out of staters are going to have to pay alot more to get a tag here as well. I see this bill passing in Montana by a big margine.
