JoseCuervo
New member
Finally, the Idaho legislators do something intelligent.... As Ten Bears proves, the Idaho education system is woefully lacking... 
Dubya Leaves More Children Behind....
- Thread starter JoseCuervo
- Start date
P
pawclaws
Guest
Why is it that every problem within the education system, regardless of what or where, is always the "need for more money"; yet, more money never seems to solve it???
First; quit running it with educators, next staff the teachers from retirees who have experience in life, a marketable skill, and a desire to share their knowledge, next put the school year on a three shift, full year schedule, next empty the staff, administration and conference offices and turn them into labs, now cut the schoolday down to four hours academic instruction and two hours independant study, next trash the grade system and design all of the courses to be self paced courses with a pass fail system where passing happens when certain gates are met, next trash the sports programs and turn them into volunteer week-end team participation controlled completely by the students; next assign coach - pupil teams among the student population who conduct periodic progress evaluations on one another, last install a curriculum that makes sense. The US is the only nation which makes Algebra mandatory, yet consistently performs at the very bottom of the list among all nations in math competitions. (Oh, after that, you can ask for more money and not until!!)
First; quit running it with educators, next staff the teachers from retirees who have experience in life, a marketable skill, and a desire to share their knowledge, next put the school year on a three shift, full year schedule, next empty the staff, administration and conference offices and turn them into labs, now cut the schoolday down to four hours academic instruction and two hours independant study, next trash the grade system and design all of the courses to be self paced courses with a pass fail system where passing happens when certain gates are met, next trash the sports programs and turn them into volunteer week-end team participation controlled completely by the students; next assign coach - pupil teams among the student population who conduct periodic progress evaluations on one another, last install a curriculum that makes sense. The US is the only nation which makes Algebra mandatory, yet consistently performs at the very bottom of the list among all nations in math competitions.
(Oh, after that, you can ask for more money and not until!!)
Whiskers
New member
Paws, thats the way the Gubmint does stuff. They throw money at problems. Then some administrator can get a big fat raise.
Transit hired a new cheif, he needed $280,000 a year to live on. That thru the budget off. So they raised the fares for retirees and handicapped people 10%. The people that can least afford it they jack the prices on. The people that ride to Wall Street (so they don't have to park their BMW's in Manhattan) rates stayed the same.
Transit hired a new cheif, he needed $280,000 a year to live on. That thru the budget off. So they raised the fares for retirees and handicapped people 10%. The people that can least afford it they jack the prices on. The people that ride to Wall Street (so they don't have to park their BMW's in Manhattan) rates stayed the same.
P
pawclaws
Guest
Scuse me Whiskers! I got to go put some corn starch in my drawers cause I'm gettin' all galded!! :grrrrr: God I hate greedy &*^%$@#@!@!@# no account so and sos!!
BbarC
New member
How many square feet of facilities in ALL schools is alloted to class rooms and how much is allotted to atheletics??How much are coaches paid in relation to classroom teachers? In no school from grade school level to college level do the atheletics departments pay their way. Are we trying to teach the kids to read and write or give them a shot at being a rich drug using woman abusing pro athelete??I'm tired of paying extemely high school taxes just so we can have a football game on Friday nite!!!I'd rather my kids have a good education and can read and write. Bob
dgibson
New member
Thank you, Bob!
cjcj
New member
Yes sir that is a fact, they just keep throwing money at the education system and it has not improved. its really screwed up here in AZ, as we have too many school superintendants, separate maintance facilities,etc. Centralizing districts, and management would save millions, but the bigwigs won`t give up the power of their individuel kingdoms. we have school superintendents who have as high as 12,000 ayear car allowences [scottdale] so they go lease mercedes/bmw`s just cause they can.
Calif. Hunter
Active member
I agree with Bob - do away with the atheletics program, at least as far as sports teans go. (I still like the idea of physical education as part of the program for the kids as a class - I just think we are throwing money away on all the inter-school team sports.)
That would free up a ton of money for academics! The other thing to do is to limit the number of administrators. A principal and vice-principal per school, 10 to 15 schools per superintendent and one district executive (if needed because of the size of the district.)
That would free up a ton of money for academics! The other thing to do is to limit the number of administrators. A principal and vice-principal per school, 10 to 15 schools per superintendent and one district executive (if needed because of the size of the district.)
Bambistew
Well-known member
Here in Baltimore the school system just got a 54 million dollar "loan"... They opperate on a 900 million dollar budget!!! the last supperintendant had over $100,000 paid to her "driver" last year. He made over $140,000 as a limo driver.
This has been the local crisis for the last month... the school system is 74 mill in the red right now. Here are a few little facts...
Baltimore averages 51% graduation[\B] rate as of last years tabulation. Yep thats right 51%, Anne Arundel county which is due south of the city averages 49%...
The teachers have gotten a 20% raise in the last three years. Average starting salary is $42,000...
There are 650,000 people that live in the city. Of those there are approximatly 140,000 children of school age.
67% of the city is African American.
15% send thier children to private school. So the tax payers pay for aproximatly 120,000 students, but if we take into account that only half of the highschool students stay in school long enough to graduate. The tax burden is more like 90,000 students. (7th grade to 12th grade makes up about 32% of the student population)...
Most of these kids have no involvement in sports, and their facilties are very run down and in need of repair. I can't say for certian what the athletics budgets are for the schools here but its pretty dismal compared to schools out west.
So a little math works out to aproximatly $10,000 to put a kid through public school for a year. Hell you can send you child to prive school for that much here.
8 years ago when I was in high school, it cost $2700 for me to go in Ennis, MT. What the hell is the deal here? It only cost me about $12,000 for my bachlors degree at MT Tech... granted I only paid about half of what it really cost, but come on, talk about WTF is going on!
This has been the local crisis for the last month... the school system is 74 mill in the red right now. Here are a few little facts...
Baltimore averages 51% graduation[\B] rate as of last years tabulation. Yep thats right 51%, Anne Arundel county which is due south of the city averages 49%...
The teachers have gotten a 20% raise in the last three years. Average starting salary is $42,000...
There are 650,000 people that live in the city. Of those there are approximatly 140,000 children of school age.
67% of the city is African American.
15% send thier children to private school. So the tax payers pay for aproximatly 120,000 students, but if we take into account that only half of the highschool students stay in school long enough to graduate. The tax burden is more like 90,000 students. (7th grade to 12th grade makes up about 32% of the student population)...
Most of these kids have no involvement in sports, and their facilties are very run down and in need of repair. I can't say for certian what the athletics budgets are for the schools here but its pretty dismal compared to schools out west.
So a little math works out to aproximatly $10,000 to put a kid through public school for a year. Hell you can send you child to prive school for that much here.
8 years ago when I was in high school, it cost $2700 for me to go in Ennis, MT. What the hell is the deal here? It only cost me about $12,000 for my bachlors degree at MT Tech... granted I only paid about half of what it really cost, but come on, talk about WTF is going on!
First off, I disagree with the comment that sports teams at all levels don't pay their way and that they should be abolished. Even though my high school football team sucked, every home game the stands were full at $5/head. That money goes into the general fund as does the $10 million bonuses colleges get for being in a BCS bowl game. That helps ALOT! Though many don't like or participate in sports they do have their good sides and teach certain skills; ie teamwork! I know of a few kids in my high school that had to stay on the straight/narrow and at least make passing grades because they lived for the sports! One is still in the military and the other's a preacher.
Man, you guys that hate sports must have gotten some mean wedgies back in the day!!!!!
I think the biggest problem with schools is accountability. Kids don't want any, teachers don't want any, and too many parents don't want any. Too often the schools are relagated the job of teaching many of the things that should have been taught at home. Too often the parents never realize their 'darling' did something wrong or did poorly on the test, it's the schools/teachers fault, thus the school corp gets blasted in the press. Much of this is why I feel private schools are better for training kids for the future, because with some outlay on the parents part they hold their kids responsible.
I know of a few kids in my high school that had to stay on the straight/narrow and at least make passing grades because they lived for the sports! One is still in the military and the other's a preacher. Man, you guys that hate sports must have gotten some mean wedgies back in the day!!!!!
I think the biggest problem with schools is accountability. Kids don't want any, teachers don't want any, and too many parents don't want any. Too often the schools are relagated the job of teaching many of the things that should have been taught at home. Too often the parents never realize their 'darling' did something wrong or did poorly on the test, it's the schools/teachers fault, thus the school corp gets blasted in the press. Much of this is why I feel private schools are better for training kids for the future, because with some outlay on the parents part they hold their kids responsible.
MarlandS
New member
Part of the problem seems to be which monies are available. I talked to a former School Board member today who said they had money available to build whatever they wanted but didn't have the money to hire a new teacher.
Coming up here in the next election is a referendum to increase the tax base 60 cents to fund the Gifted Program, this is a school that just in the last two years quit a co-op program with a neighboring town for football because they built a nice new stadium /field.
So, my daughter could lose her advanced classes but some kid is going to get to play a sport without being bussed seven miles. Makes perfect sense to me.
Coming up here in the next election is a referendum to increase the tax base 60 cents to fund the Gifted Program, this is a school that just in the last two years quit a co-op program with a neighboring town for football because they built a nice new stadium /field.
So, my daughter could lose her advanced classes but some kid is going to get to play a sport without being bussed seven miles. Makes perfect sense to me.
dgibson
New member
1_pointer, you almost had me. But let's look at some general considerations. First, the BCS bowl game bonus stuff is irrelevant--you can't budget against a bonus you MIGHT get IF your team is good enough. This isn't Wall Street, it's Main Street high school.
Second, do you really think that sports programs pay their way? I don't have figures to quote so I'm going on logical thought processes here. You have the cost of initial construction of the facilities (long since absorbed in most schools, unless they've done a "remodel"). Then there's the cost of maintenance--mowing grass, sweeping fields, cleanup after games, painting lines, light bills, cooling bills for gyms, etc., etc. Then there's the cost of equipment--balls, training gear, etc., etc. Now we have salaries--coaches, asst. coaches, grounds maintenance, and so forth. You can't discount insurance; liability alone is pricey for schools. Add to that the myriad other expenses (uniforms, marching bands, cheerleaders, buses and travel, etc., etc.) and you get the point.
Now, do you REALLY think that $5/head packed stadium pays for everything?
Second, do you really think that sports programs pay their way? I don't have figures to quote so I'm going on logical thought processes here. You have the cost of initial construction of the facilities (long since absorbed in most schools, unless they've done a "remodel"). Then there's the cost of maintenance--mowing grass, sweeping fields, cleanup after games, painting lines, light bills, cooling bills for gyms, etc., etc. Then there's the cost of equipment--balls, training gear, etc., etc. Now we have salaries--coaches, asst. coaches, grounds maintenance, and so forth. You can't discount insurance; liability alone is pricey for schools. Add to that the myriad other expenses (uniforms, marching bands, cheerleaders, buses and travel, etc., etc.) and you get the point.
Now, do you REALLY think that $5/head packed stadium pays for everything?
Erik in AK
New member
I wrote a paper recently about this for government class. It is mostly my opinion.
Its no secret that America's public education system is in a shambles. Urban decay, teen
pregnancy, the decay of the nuclear family, labor unions, law suits, teacher strikes, drugs and
violence, all contribute to an education system that has already failed an entire generation of
middle-class American kids.
The problems with America’s public education stem from four primary sources: First and foremost, the failure of the American family; Second, the proliferation of Outcome Based Education; Thirdly; the federal funding formula; and lastly, the issue of states rights.
I believe that three of these sources could be rectified by nationalizing public schools, to include the implementation of a national curriculum. In addition to the negative impact of social problems on the quality of public education, federal funding models, the emergence of Outcome Based Education and the matter of public schools as a states rights issue all contribute greatly to this problem.
While each of these topics merit detailed examination, they are interrelated and for the purposes of this presentation I will discuss them together before introducing my proposed solution.
Public schools are in trouble largely because the American family has been in trouble for over three decades. In addition to being a matter of common sense, it is an empirical, much studied and documented, irrefutable fact that children begin to learn from the moment they are born. Parents, whether they realize it or not, control that learning at its earliest, and most critical
stages.
Education starts at home, or at least it used to.
Language, the rudiments of writing, and manners are established in the home. Of course, this is entirely dependent on positive parental ivolvement in the child’s development. Sadly,
families aren’t families anymore, at least not in the traditional sense.
Half of America’s children are raised in single parent homes. The majority of single parents are women with no more than a high school education. According to the 2000 Census, 78% of single mothers earn less than 30,000 dollars a year. Its no secret these kids under-perform on standardized tests.
For nearly all of the 20th century, schools as institutions, operated under the assumption that when children arrived for their first day of kindergarten they had already been taught some manners and how to behave respectfully. This used to be the norm in America. Now the reverse is true. A recent Time magazine article highlighted the increasing trend of violence and horribly vulgar language among kindergartners. Five year olds are being expelled for attacking, and cursing at their teachers.
The failure of familial integrity as an essential foundation of learning is a national epidemic and is beyond the scope of government to correct unilaterally however, the policies and administration of our schools’ are within government’s ability to correct and they too are failing.
Part of the problem is money. Most federal funding for public schools comes in the form of performance-based grants or matching funds. The U.S. Department of Education typically accepts whatever standards the individual states set for themselves. The standard used by most states is the percentage of the senior class that graduates. Theoretically, this is supposed to
motivate educators to devise innovative ways to “raise the bar” in developing and improving
students' academic skills.
This economic incentive for schools to graduate a set minimum number of seniors no matter what has created a fox-guarding-the-henhouse scenario. In many under-performing schools, particularly in the inner city, standards are ultimately lowered to ensure enough seniors “graduate” so as to keep the federal dollars coming. Case in point; from
1979 to 1984, the years I attended 7th through 12th grades, the minimum passing test score set by the New York State Board of Regents was 65%. In 1984 my high school graduated 83 of 84 seniors. From 1990 to 1994 New York lost over 40 million dollars in performance grants. In 1995 New York lowered its minimum passing score to 55%. The irony here is that nationally, federal dollars only account for, on average, 7% of all public education funding at the local level. This is not just New York, its’ a national trend.
Schools, as quasi-governmental institutions, along with their faculties and staffs, are easier to impact with policy change. As politicians and bureaucrats come under increased public pressure to “do something”, they inevitably attempt to "fix the problem" by taking the path of political expediency, which is to simultaneously blame teachers while throwing money at the symptoms. "More and better computers..." makes for a nice re-election sound byte but does nothing to improve SAT scores. This is has resulted in a system that has become increasingly
teacher centric. This dynamic has been codified by the rise of Outcome Based Education (OBE) in recent years.
OBE claims to focus on students as individuals. It claims that given enough time all children can learn…something…eventually. OBE promotes the concept of allowing students to set the pace of their own learning while placing the burden for their success or failure on their teachers in the name of accountability. How can we expect teachers to administer a personalized syllabus for every student? Simple. We can’t, so teachers, in order to avoid official sanction tend
to “dumb down” their classes in order to ensure enough kids pass. Like many academic theories
OBE assumes, and is entirely dependent on students who are eager to learn and willing to work at their own education.
Under this model teachers are no longer the primary sources of knowledge nor are they the primary arbiters of whether or not a student’s performance meets standards. Under OBE teachers are relegated to being guides and motivators, essentially stripped of their rightful authority to set the pace of learning, and to maintain order in the classroom. Worse, by removing that authority, it absolves teachers of responsibility, ultimately de-motivating them.
In practice, in real schools with real people, all OBE does is put an official sounding label on the rationale for accepting less from our kids in order to secure funding to improve the quality of education at that particular school...more irony.
As bad as all of this seems, it is further compounded by the debate over who bears the greatest responsibility in administering public education; the Federal Government or the State.
Every single state contends that control of public education falls solely within the purview of the state and any that attempt by the federal government to regulate public education is a violation of states rights and therefore unconstitutional. Currently each state issues its’ own public school curricula. Each state sets its own pass/fail standards and criteria for gaining a high school diploma. Currently only 19 states have some form of standardized testing as a pre-requisite for grade advancement.
In addition to the U.S. Department of Education, American taxpayers fund additional and redundant state and local bureaucracies all designed to re-accomplish what the federal agency is supposed to do. Not wanting to be outdone, each state level DoE has a division dedicated to “dealing” with the Feds and the U.S. DoE has a division dedicated to each of the 50 states and Washington D.C.
So what has all this yielded us as a nation? A great deal of energy and money is wasted on turf-wars. For example, as soon as the Bush administration’s No Child Left Behind initiative was presented to congress both States and teachers unions fought to have the standardized testing provisions removed in the name of states rights. Bush’s education reform bill would have required states to develop tests along the lines of the Iowa model by 2008. In addition to identifying under-performing students, these same test results would have been used to identify potentially under-performing schools and individual teachers which was, in my opinion, the real reason for the protesting.
The intent of this was to get help for teachers who need help or continuing education. All of this language was met with howling opposition by the NEA and by states rights proponents in the
Congress and was summarily watered down.
So, what has all this bought us? We have created an environment in too many school districts where (1)maintaining the flow of federal funding has become the primary management goal. Again, on average a mere 7%, and (2)teachers, stripped of their responsibility and accountability, are denied their rightful place in our society, as authority figures and as important shapers of developing minds. Most American high school teachers live in a world where they are equally afraid of becoming the target of either violence or a lawsuit.
In my mind all of these issues make a compelling case for a nationalizing public schools. Why do we continue to allow politicians to pretend that a child’s educational needs vary from state to state? Are kids from Connecticut, which historically has one of the strongest public
education systems, really more deserving of a solid education then kids from Louisiana, which
historically has one of the weakest.
I contend that the so-called “smartness” of a child is a direct reflection of how effectively that child has been challenged academically. I also contend that algebra is algebra and that by 9th grade every American child should have been taught how to do it. The rules and mechanics of American English are universal yet they are not taught or enforced equally in every state. Does anybody really believe that Ebonics helps a kid succeed?
It is time for measurable, enforceable national education standards. We are a nation composed
of every people on earth but we are still one nation. We have one common history, one currency, one constitution and despite all the controversy, one language. We are already united
by standardization throughout our entire infrastructure. We recognize, or at least we say we recognize that children are the future. We refer to them as the leaders of tomorrow and yet we continue to perpetrate an educational system that fails to prepare an ever increasing number of them for that future.
It is time to overhaul they way we educate our children. Our continued success and future as a nation is tied to the strength and productivity of our average citizens. The manner in which we educate our children dictates the quality of that average.
Towards that end, I propose that the U.S. Department of Education be transformed into the U.S. Public Education Service with K-12 teachers becoming federalized civil servants.
The USPEC would be charged with:
- Establishing a measurable system of accountability for teachers curriculum managers
and administrators at every level.
- Utililizing the federal pay scale with stepped allowances based on education and experience and programmed adjustments for high cost-of-living communities
- Establishing Mathematics, English, Science, and American History as Core Study Units.
- Developing standardized curriculum outlines for each grade K through 12 based on the building
block approach and emphasizing the Core Study Units and PE. These outlines would take into consideration the importance of locally significant education choices, particularly state and local history and culture.
- Developing standardized tests to measure progress and to identify students, teachers and
schools that need help. Some form of tests would be a prerequisite for grade advancement.
- Establish 350 students as the target maximum graduating class size and fund new school
construction to reapportion overly large districts.
- Funding academic facility maintenance, textbooks, basic teacher supplies and school meal
programs based on need and student enrollment.
The states would be responsible for:
- Administering the national curriculum and standardized tests.
- Developing and funding standardized curricula for state history, electives, music and art programs.
- Funding or subsidizing public school transportation.
Individual school districts would be responsible for:
- Developing and administering curricula for locally significant areas of study in history, science and culture.
- Funding athletic programs and non-academic facilities controlled by the district.
- Establishing dress code and/or uniform policies.
- School security.
My proposal would not affect private schools, charter schools or families who wish to home-school. The only exceptions would be that charter school and home-schooled seniors seeking a state sanctioned diploma would still have to pass the required tests for the Core Stud Units.
Finally, I realize that this proposal constitutes a radical restructuring of our public education system and would certainly be met with tremendous opposition on many fronts.
Although this is an academic exercise, I do believe that we as a nation, need to take a hard look at how we allow our children be educated and maintaining the status quo is not the answer. I am not a fan of bigger government but the system we have is no system at all, it’s a disjointed
collection of competing bureaucracies that have long ago forgotten why they exist. It is time to
unify and standardize the way we educate our kids. Federalizing our public education is potentially the most feasible means of doing so.
Its no secret that America's public education system is in a shambles. Urban decay, teen
pregnancy, the decay of the nuclear family, labor unions, law suits, teacher strikes, drugs and
violence, all contribute to an education system that has already failed an entire generation of
middle-class American kids.
The problems with America’s public education stem from four primary sources: First and foremost, the failure of the American family; Second, the proliferation of Outcome Based Education; Thirdly; the federal funding formula; and lastly, the issue of states rights.
I believe that three of these sources could be rectified by nationalizing public schools, to include the implementation of a national curriculum. In addition to the negative impact of social problems on the quality of public education, federal funding models, the emergence of Outcome Based Education and the matter of public schools as a states rights issue all contribute greatly to this problem.
While each of these topics merit detailed examination, they are interrelated and for the purposes of this presentation I will discuss them together before introducing my proposed solution.
Public schools are in trouble largely because the American family has been in trouble for over three decades. In addition to being a matter of common sense, it is an empirical, much studied and documented, irrefutable fact that children begin to learn from the moment they are born. Parents, whether they realize it or not, control that learning at its earliest, and most critical
stages.
Education starts at home, or at least it used to.
Language, the rudiments of writing, and manners are established in the home. Of course, this is entirely dependent on positive parental ivolvement in the child’s development. Sadly,
families aren’t families anymore, at least not in the traditional sense.
Half of America’s children are raised in single parent homes. The majority of single parents are women with no more than a high school education. According to the 2000 Census, 78% of single mothers earn less than 30,000 dollars a year. Its no secret these kids under-perform on standardized tests.
For nearly all of the 20th century, schools as institutions, operated under the assumption that when children arrived for their first day of kindergarten they had already been taught some manners and how to behave respectfully. This used to be the norm in America. Now the reverse is true. A recent Time magazine article highlighted the increasing trend of violence and horribly vulgar language among kindergartners. Five year olds are being expelled for attacking, and cursing at their teachers.
The failure of familial integrity as an essential foundation of learning is a national epidemic and is beyond the scope of government to correct unilaterally however, the policies and administration of our schools’ are within government’s ability to correct and they too are failing.
Part of the problem is money. Most federal funding for public schools comes in the form of performance-based grants or matching funds. The U.S. Department of Education typically accepts whatever standards the individual states set for themselves. The standard used by most states is the percentage of the senior class that graduates. Theoretically, this is supposed to
motivate educators to devise innovative ways to “raise the bar” in developing and improving
students' academic skills.
This economic incentive for schools to graduate a set minimum number of seniors no matter what has created a fox-guarding-the-henhouse scenario. In many under-performing schools, particularly in the inner city, standards are ultimately lowered to ensure enough seniors “graduate” so as to keep the federal dollars coming. Case in point; from
1979 to 1984, the years I attended 7th through 12th grades, the minimum passing test score set by the New York State Board of Regents was 65%. In 1984 my high school graduated 83 of 84 seniors. From 1990 to 1994 New York lost over 40 million dollars in performance grants. In 1995 New York lowered its minimum passing score to 55%. The irony here is that nationally, federal dollars only account for, on average, 7% of all public education funding at the local level. This is not just New York, its’ a national trend.
Schools, as quasi-governmental institutions, along with their faculties and staffs, are easier to impact with policy change. As politicians and bureaucrats come under increased public pressure to “do something”, they inevitably attempt to "fix the problem" by taking the path of political expediency, which is to simultaneously blame teachers while throwing money at the symptoms. "More and better computers..." makes for a nice re-election sound byte but does nothing to improve SAT scores. This is has resulted in a system that has become increasingly
teacher centric. This dynamic has been codified by the rise of Outcome Based Education (OBE) in recent years.
OBE claims to focus on students as individuals. It claims that given enough time all children can learn…something…eventually. OBE promotes the concept of allowing students to set the pace of their own learning while placing the burden for their success or failure on their teachers in the name of accountability. How can we expect teachers to administer a personalized syllabus for every student? Simple. We can’t, so teachers, in order to avoid official sanction tend
to “dumb down” their classes in order to ensure enough kids pass. Like many academic theories
OBE assumes, and is entirely dependent on students who are eager to learn and willing to work at their own education.
Under this model teachers are no longer the primary sources of knowledge nor are they the primary arbiters of whether or not a student’s performance meets standards. Under OBE teachers are relegated to being guides and motivators, essentially stripped of their rightful authority to set the pace of learning, and to maintain order in the classroom. Worse, by removing that authority, it absolves teachers of responsibility, ultimately de-motivating them.
In practice, in real schools with real people, all OBE does is put an official sounding label on the rationale for accepting less from our kids in order to secure funding to improve the quality of education at that particular school...more irony.
As bad as all of this seems, it is further compounded by the debate over who bears the greatest responsibility in administering public education; the Federal Government or the State.
Every single state contends that control of public education falls solely within the purview of the state and any that attempt by the federal government to regulate public education is a violation of states rights and therefore unconstitutional. Currently each state issues its’ own public school curricula. Each state sets its own pass/fail standards and criteria for gaining a high school diploma. Currently only 19 states have some form of standardized testing as a pre-requisite for grade advancement.
In addition to the U.S. Department of Education, American taxpayers fund additional and redundant state and local bureaucracies all designed to re-accomplish what the federal agency is supposed to do. Not wanting to be outdone, each state level DoE has a division dedicated to “dealing” with the Feds and the U.S. DoE has a division dedicated to each of the 50 states and Washington D.C.
So what has all this yielded us as a nation? A great deal of energy and money is wasted on turf-wars. For example, as soon as the Bush administration’s No Child Left Behind initiative was presented to congress both States and teachers unions fought to have the standardized testing provisions removed in the name of states rights. Bush’s education reform bill would have required states to develop tests along the lines of the Iowa model by 2008. In addition to identifying under-performing students, these same test results would have been used to identify potentially under-performing schools and individual teachers which was, in my opinion, the real reason for the protesting.
The intent of this was to get help for teachers who need help or continuing education. All of this language was met with howling opposition by the NEA and by states rights proponents in the
Congress and was summarily watered down.
So, what has all this bought us? We have created an environment in too many school districts where (1)maintaining the flow of federal funding has become the primary management goal. Again, on average a mere 7%, and (2)teachers, stripped of their responsibility and accountability, are denied their rightful place in our society, as authority figures and as important shapers of developing minds. Most American high school teachers live in a world where they are equally afraid of becoming the target of either violence or a lawsuit.
In my mind all of these issues make a compelling case for a nationalizing public schools. Why do we continue to allow politicians to pretend that a child’s educational needs vary from state to state? Are kids from Connecticut, which historically has one of the strongest public
education systems, really more deserving of a solid education then kids from Louisiana, which
historically has one of the weakest.
I contend that the so-called “smartness” of a child is a direct reflection of how effectively that child has been challenged academically. I also contend that algebra is algebra and that by 9th grade every American child should have been taught how to do it. The rules and mechanics of American English are universal yet they are not taught or enforced equally in every state. Does anybody really believe that Ebonics helps a kid succeed?
It is time for measurable, enforceable national education standards. We are a nation composed
of every people on earth but we are still one nation. We have one common history, one currency, one constitution and despite all the controversy, one language. We are already united
by standardization throughout our entire infrastructure. We recognize, or at least we say we recognize that children are the future. We refer to them as the leaders of tomorrow and yet we continue to perpetrate an educational system that fails to prepare an ever increasing number of them for that future.
It is time to overhaul they way we educate our children. Our continued success and future as a nation is tied to the strength and productivity of our average citizens. The manner in which we educate our children dictates the quality of that average.
Towards that end, I propose that the U.S. Department of Education be transformed into the U.S. Public Education Service with K-12 teachers becoming federalized civil servants.
The USPEC would be charged with:
- Establishing a measurable system of accountability for teachers curriculum managers
and administrators at every level.
- Utililizing the federal pay scale with stepped allowances based on education and experience and programmed adjustments for high cost-of-living communities
- Establishing Mathematics, English, Science, and American History as Core Study Units.
- Developing standardized curriculum outlines for each grade K through 12 based on the building
block approach and emphasizing the Core Study Units and PE. These outlines would take into consideration the importance of locally significant education choices, particularly state and local history and culture.
- Developing standardized tests to measure progress and to identify students, teachers and
schools that need help. Some form of tests would be a prerequisite for grade advancement.
- Establish 350 students as the target maximum graduating class size and fund new school
construction to reapportion overly large districts.
- Funding academic facility maintenance, textbooks, basic teacher supplies and school meal
programs based on need and student enrollment.
The states would be responsible for:
- Administering the national curriculum and standardized tests.
- Developing and funding standardized curricula for state history, electives, music and art programs.
- Funding or subsidizing public school transportation.
Individual school districts would be responsible for:
- Developing and administering curricula for locally significant areas of study in history, science and culture.
- Funding athletic programs and non-academic facilities controlled by the district.
- Establishing dress code and/or uniform policies.
- School security.
My proposal would not affect private schools, charter schools or families who wish to home-school. The only exceptions would be that charter school and home-schooled seniors seeking a state sanctioned diploma would still have to pass the required tests for the Core Stud Units.
Finally, I realize that this proposal constitutes a radical restructuring of our public education system and would certainly be met with tremendous opposition on many fronts.
Although this is an academic exercise, I do believe that we as a nation, need to take a hard look at how we allow our children be educated and maintaining the status quo is not the answer. I am not a fan of bigger government but the system we have is no system at all, it’s a disjointed
collection of competing bureaucracies that have long ago forgotten why they exist. It is time to
unify and standardize the way we educate our kids. Federalizing our public education is potentially the most feasible means of doing so.
RockyDog
Member
Boy, i must be really stupid. I was so unaware that most schools are overfunded. I also didnt know that we should abolish high school sports. That all really makes alots of sense, you guys must really know alot about the state of our education system.
The best idea was to have a bunch of burned-out retirees teaching our kids, for cheap, not some energetic young teacher who actually isnt cynical and thinks he/she could have a positive impact on a kids future.
What a bunch of ??>>. Pull your heads out of your ??>>>. Id like to see Bambistew live on $42k as a developer in maryland, thats like making $18 in montana.
Teachers in most states cant make enough to support a family. Most schools are way overcrowded and most are dropping all of their advanced learning programs for smart kids......yet the highway departments in every state waste millions every year just so they can get the next years funding.
It really makes sense to pay a guy holding a stop sign on a construction site $25/hr Davis-Bacon wages but only pay a teacher $10/hr so that he/she has to get a second job, or not teach. Why dont you bitch about highway spending, oh because that supports the corporations. States with good education systems grow crops of kids that wanna stay and open good quality businesses. States with poor systems grow something different. Think long term.
Get rid of high school sports, now that just proves you guys are losers.
This country is great because most of us are educated, therefore we usually are smart enough not to be bullied and misled by tyrant leaders. The educations system, among other things, is setup so that you get a free education paid for by everybody whos working, then when its your turn you pay it forward by paying for the next generations education. The problem is people are so dam greedy and selfish they dont wanna pay for the next kids education, or keep deficits in check.
[ 03-11-2004, 12:50: Message edited by: RockyDog ]
The best idea was to have a bunch of burned-out retirees teaching our kids, for cheap, not some energetic young teacher who actually isnt cynical and thinks he/she could have a positive impact on a kids future.
What a bunch of ??>>. Pull your heads out of your ??>>>. Id like to see Bambistew live on $42k as a developer in maryland, thats like making $18 in montana.
Teachers in most states cant make enough to support a family. Most schools are way overcrowded and most are dropping all of their advanced learning programs for smart kids......yet the highway departments in every state waste millions every year just so they can get the next years funding.
It really makes sense to pay a guy holding a stop sign on a construction site $25/hr Davis-Bacon wages but only pay a teacher $10/hr so that he/she has to get a second job, or not teach. Why dont you bitch about highway spending, oh because that supports the corporations. States with good education systems grow crops of kids that wanna stay and open good quality businesses. States with poor systems grow something different. Think long term.
Get rid of high school sports, now that just proves you guys are losers.
This country is great because most of us are educated, therefore we usually are smart enough not to be bullied and misled by tyrant leaders. The educations system, among other things, is setup so that you get a free education paid for by everybody whos working, then when its your turn you pay it forward by paying for the next generations education. The problem is people are so dam greedy and selfish they dont wanna pay for the next kids education, or keep deficits in check.
[ 03-11-2004, 12:50: Message edited by: RockyDog ]
Calif. Hunter
Active member
Rocky Dog - please watch your mouth. No matter how you spell it, certain words are generally considered rude in polite conversation and their use usually indicates a lack of couth. After a few years in the Navy, I can swear with the best of you, but I choose not to lower myself to that level as I have a certain amount of self-respect.
You offer no backup of your comments concerning those who feel that sports are not something that should be placed at the top of the academics priority - you merely rant.
Your lack of comprehension concerning the use of apostrophes or other punctuation throws doubt upon your comments about most of us being educated.
My wife is a teacher, and has been for 14 years. I agree with your comments that teachers are underpaid, but disagree that young, idealistic dreamers are the best teachers. Young teachers have little life experience and tend to merely parrot what they have been taught by professors who rarely leave the security of their campus community and who live in a wondrous world of Never Land - not the reality that we all face daily. Theory is great - like Marxism - but reality is a different matter entirely. I would rather my son be taught by a caring person with a rich background of life experience than by either a idealist young idiot or a retired moron - but I think there is someplace in the middle that is attainable.
You offer no backup of your comments concerning those who feel that sports are not something that should be placed at the top of the academics priority - you merely rant.
Your lack of comprehension concerning the use of apostrophes or other punctuation throws doubt upon your comments about most of us being educated.
My wife is a teacher, and has been for 14 years. I agree with your comments that teachers are underpaid, but disagree that young, idealistic dreamers are the best teachers. Young teachers have little life experience and tend to merely parrot what they have been taught by professors who rarely leave the security of their campus community and who live in a wondrous world of Never Land - not the reality that we all face daily. Theory is great - like Marxism - but reality is a different matter entirely. I would rather my son be taught by a caring person with a rich background of life experience than by either a idealist young idiot or a retired moron - but I think there is someplace in the middle that is attainable.
RockyDog
Member
Calif. Hunter, i apologize for the profanity. But it really gets me going to listen to people rant about teachers pay, the poor people make a life decision to never have a quality lifestyle in exchange for the privelege of teaching.
As far as my commas and apostrophes, i didnt realize this was a report that was going to be proofread for punctuation. This is Moosie's site, so that makes bad punctuation a must.
I dont feel the need to offer any backup for not killing high school sports, which is what "do away with the atheletics program" means rather than your spin of taking it down on the priority rank. Anyone that says we should abolish high school sports has no idea what's good for kids and they are only being selfish old cusses.
Regardless of what you think about retirees versus young teachers, i still disagree with you. Im basing on my opinion on many, many conversations with at least 6 different teachers who are either very good friends or relatives. Most retirees dont have the energy or the open-mindedness to be teachers, so its a bunk idea, but irrelevant since it aint ever gonna happen in this lifetime.
almost forgot, your lack of comprehension concerning the proper spelling of "atheletics" throws doubt upon you being educated.
As far as my commas and apostrophes, i didnt realize this was a report that was going to be proofread for punctuation. This is Moosie's site, so that makes bad punctuation a must.
I dont feel the need to offer any backup for not killing high school sports, which is what "do away with the atheletics program" means rather than your spin of taking it down on the priority rank. Anyone that says we should abolish high school sports has no idea what's good for kids and they are only being selfish old cusses.
Regardless of what you think about retirees versus young teachers, i still disagree with you. Im basing on my opinion on many, many conversations with at least 6 different teachers who are either very good friends or relatives. Most retirees dont have the energy or the open-mindedness to be teachers, so its a bunk idea, but irrelevant since it aint ever gonna happen in this lifetime.
almost forgot, your lack of comprehension concerning the proper spelling of "atheletics" throws doubt upon you being educated.
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Rather than doing away with high school sports, why not just have the parents pay the bill, if their kids want to be involved in sports?
DG- Now the $5/head doesn't pay its way if you only consider that those on the sports teams are benefitting from it. Phys Ed requires many/most of the same facilities as the athletic programs and much of that cost can be offset by the athletic programs. The advanced PE classes utilized the weight room which was solely funded by the football and volleyball teams, yet anyone could enroll. Many kids are able to get part or all of their college education paid for by playing sports. Others are able to be healthier, happier kids by being able to utilize many of the facilities funded in whole or part by athletic teams. Don't get me wrong, I don't think athletics should be the focus of schools, but I don't think they should be abolished either. Heck, my senior year all our Honor's Programs were abolished so in order to get prepared for the Advanced Placement Chemistry test I had to go to school 1-2hrs earlier 3-5days/week for 6 weeks. Previously this was offered as a separate class for credit. Those that want it will get it if they want it bad enough.
Plus, I think it is good to offer many different outlets to kids such as band, art clubs, plays, and sports. I know I stayed out of alot of after-school trouble by having things to do after school such as baseball/football practice, the fitness program, Academic Superbowl, prom committee etc. High school is what the kids make it and a good group of kids will make it great for all!
Plus, I think it is good to offer many different outlets to kids such as band, art clubs, plays, and sports. I know I stayed out of alot of after-school trouble by having things to do after school such as baseball/football practice, the fitness program, Academic Superbowl, prom committee etc. High school is what the kids make it and a good group of kids will make it great for all!
Bambistew
Well-known member
Not really sure what you mean by that... My starting wage as a Civil Engineer was less than that, just a few years ago.
At $42k for new teachers here seems quite high if you ask me. That puts them right in the middle of the income bracket for household income. If their spouse made that much, they would be in the top 20%. It doesn't cost any more to live here than it does in MT. Hell rent in Bozeman or Missoula is more than it is here. All my groceries cost the same, bills are the same etc, etc. First year teachers in MT average about $28,000 a year. Which is quite low if you ask me!
My dad was a teacher in MT and my sister is a teacher in ID. My dad retired two years ago after 29 years of teaching, his salary was about $36,000 a year. New teachers getting hired on at his old school are getting home with about $1000 a month after health insurance is taken out, if they have a family. That is very sickening to me, but at the same time they knew what the wages were when they started school to be a teacher. They didn't do it for the money to begin with, they did it because they like working with kids right?
My parents raised three kids on a teachers salary along with working every summer and after school and building a house. My mom had two jobs and worked 6 days a week. Could we have got by on his salary, probably? Other teachers his age with families made it OK. Did my parents want a higher standard of living for their children? ABSOLUTELY, that’s why they pushed us every chance they got!
I get sick and tired of teachers trying to proclaim themselves as the corners of society. They are merely the spoon that stirs the pot. Parents are the true corners of society. How many successful people do you know that came from single parent families? I can only think of a handful of my friends that went to college that came from single parent homes. All the rest came from homes with, usually the persons birth parents.
Out of all the teachers and professors I had, only a couple stand out as true "teachers" in my mind. The rest were just there to do the job and get the pay check, some were absolutely horrible at what they taught.
IMO and according to the governments pay scale... it's not as hard to be a teacher as they all claim it is. I have lots of friends that became teachers. They went from failing upper math and science classes to getting straight A's in teaching classes. A class is a class; difficulty level is relative to the curriculum. First year engineers going to work for the state highway department make less than teachers in Baltimore City.
I think they’re paid accordingly for what they have to do. How many other jobs start at 8:00 and let out at 4:00? Get every weekend off and 3 months in the summer plus 10 paid sick leave days? As an hourly basis for work done its a pretty good wage. How many teachers do you talk to that say I put in 60 hours this week? The only ones I've talked to were professors doing research... Hell, if they're so poor why don't they get a job for those three months vacation they have off? If they could make the same “low” wage working those three months of vacation they would take home over $52,000 a year based on the $42,000 starting wage.
You can't expect to get much for free, if you want to ensure your kids to get a good education send them to private school. Funny thing is private schools cost relatively the same to operate as a public school. I wonder why the children turn out so much better as a whole? Do you think it has anything to do with successful parents that care about their kids enough to send them there? Oh, say most people can’t afford it, well GET A BETTER JOB. What’s stopping them? Motivation, that’s it.
I don't think getting rid of sports is the answer either. Sports programs bring a sence of pride and helps with moral. Some kids wouldn't want anything to do with school if it wasn't for sports.
It’s a trickle down effect, worthless parents breed worthless children, and those same people want to blame the government for their children turning out the way they do! Again it goes back to having no one to blame but themselves.
Ivan
Calif. Hunter
Active member
Rocky Dog - I never claimed to be educated. (Ya got me on that one!)
Also, I said that I would prefer someone with "rich life experience" than either a young idealist with his/her head in the clouds or a retired idiot. Naturally, there has to be some kind of a selection and evaluation process no matter what the employment pool consists of.
In the school district my wife worked in and the different one my son attends, the professionalism of teachers has gone downhill. Most, especially the younger ones, do not work a full day most of the time, they have a bunch of "no student" days to do what my wife used to do before or after school, they dress worse than their students, etc. There are good ones who are, unfortunately, the exception to the rule. My wife always dressed like a professional, since teaching is considered a "profession" right up there with doctors, accountants, attorneys, etc. She will do so again when Mikey enters second grade and she goes back to teaching for a few years. (It is our choice that she be a "at home" Mom while he was pre-grade school age and that she again be at home when he enters the 6th grade or so.)
I agree with the person who said that perhaps the people participating in the programs should help pay for them - let the athletes, band members, cheerleaders, stamp collectors, etc. all hold fundraisers to help fund their favorite activity. Since PE is no longer required, the gyms and other facilities are mainly used by the die-hard sports fans and not by the general population of the school.
(Ya got me on that one!)Also, I said that I would prefer someone with "rich life experience" than either a young idealist with his/her head in the clouds or a retired idiot. Naturally, there has to be some kind of a selection and evaluation process no matter what the employment pool consists of.
In the school district my wife worked in and the different one my son attends, the professionalism of teachers has gone downhill. Most, especially the younger ones, do not work a full day most of the time, they have a bunch of "no student" days to do what my wife used to do before or after school, they dress worse than their students, etc. There are good ones who are, unfortunately, the exception to the rule. My wife always dressed like a professional, since teaching is considered a "profession" right up there with doctors, accountants, attorneys, etc. She will do so again when Mikey enters second grade and she goes back to teaching for a few years. (It is our choice that she be a "at home" Mom while he was pre-grade school age and that she again be at home when he enters the 6th grade or so.)
I agree with the person who said that perhaps the people participating in the programs should help pay for them - let the athletes, band members, cheerleaders, stamp collectors, etc. all hold fundraisers to help fund their favorite activity. Since PE is no longer required, the gyms and other facilities are mainly used by the die-hard sports fans and not by the general population of the school.
