Dubya fires his Scientists.....

JoseCuervo

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So much for a healthy Missouri River for the Fish.....

Government pulls scientists off Missouri river project
By LIBBY QUAID
Associated Press

WASHINGTON – The long-running dispute over management of the nation’s longest river took another twist when the Bush administration yanked government scientists off a project to study the waterway’s ecosystem.


The team had been on the job for years and was within weeks of producing what could have been its final report. Conservation groups criticized last week’s unreported decision to remove the scientists, which they said was to protect business interests at the expense of the Endangered Species Act.


The move may block changes to the Missouri River’s flow, because the scientists had ordered the switch. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has resisted changing river operations but is under a December deadline to come up with a new plan that meets requirements of the Endangered Species Act.


A different team of scientists at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service will say whether the corps can avoid major changes – such as a previously ordered switch to a more natural spring rise and low summer flow – and remain in compliance with the act.


It’s the latest development in a bitter battle over managing the nation’s longest river, which stretches 2,341 miles from Montana to St. Louis, where it empties into the Mississippi.


Conservation groups accused the administration of trying to avoid changing to a more seasonal ebb and flow to benefit birds and fish.


“In a month’s time, a group of people that knows nothing about the Missouri are supposed to write a credible biological opinion? Give me a break,” Chad Smith, spokesman for the group American Rivers said Wednesday.


The Fish and Wildlife Service said critics were jumping to conclusions.


“Obviously, that’s prejudging what’s going to happen here, and there has been no prejudgment of what’s going to happen here,” said Hugh Vickery, spokesman for the Interior Department, which includes the service. “The bottom line is, this will go where the science leads. There is no predetermination.”


He said one of the new team leaders, Robyn Thorson, is regional director of the Service’s Minnesota-based Great Lakes-Big Rivers region, which includes a portion of the Missouri. The other leader is Dale Hall, regional director of the agency’s Southwest Region in Albuquerque, N.M.


The old team of scientists said three years ago the Missouri needs a more natural spring rise and low summer levels to comply with the Endangered Species Act, and their findings were confirmed by the National Academy of Sciences. Current operations were put into place before the river’s sturgeon and shorebird species made the government’s threatened and endangered species list.


The corps resisted, and the Bush administration postponed the changes. It now is seeking a new “biological opinion” from the wildlife service.
 
Well, if you kill the messenger, you don't have to listen to the message. Then you can hire new messengers and whisper in their ears what they're supposed to repeat.

I particularly like this line: "It now is seeking a new “biological opinion” from the wildlife service."
rolleyes.gif


Oak
 
Hell, I'm not sure any of the candidates from either side of the aisle is worth voting for.

That 'second biological opinion' is some choice stuff. What about a third? And all this time I thought the Republicans were against increasing gov. expenditures!
tongue.gif
 
"And all this time I thought the Republicans were against increasing gov. expenditures!"

They are Pointer. Not letting the Democrates in the House put their pork in the budget this year is a good example of fiscal conservatism. It's also teaching the Democrates a good lesson.

So far, Bush is the only choice. Maybe the Dems can find someone else to run?

Paul
 
Paul,

I love Dubya's $480 Billion deficit.....
rolleyes.gif
Yeppers, there is some fiscal responsiblity.....

My guess is you have no children, or you would begin to look out for their future too...
eek.gif
 
Gunner,

No, I do not have children, but you already knew that.

If I did however, here are some things that would concern me.

The quality of this worlds enviroment, with an increased concern the closer to where my family lived.

How safe my country is from an extremist attack, and how strong the national defense is.

Over population of the world.

The flooding of illegal alliens to this country.

Future jobs for my children.

Affordable housing for my children.

Available resources for my children.

Available food supply for my children.

Clean water for my children.

A quality education for my children.

A future for my children that includes HUNTING.

A place where people people share.

A place where people do not feel entitled to anything. If you want it, earn it.

A place not full of personal extreme agendas.

A place where people do NOT PROMOTE VANDALISM just because they disagree with another persons ideals.

How about you gunner, anything on this list you agree with? It's a pretty big wish list, but can be acheived with a little positive effort.

Paul
 
Paul, I agree with all those things. But, what I cant figure is why you would defend GW and his administration. They are trying as hard as possible to take those very things away...case in point. Threatening future hunting, adversly affecting wildlife and habitat, taking a viable program away from farmers, reversing conservation efforts, destroying clean water (for both humans and wildlife), etc. etc.. This one issue is in direct conflict with at least 4 items on your list. How can you defend that?

Posted on Mon, Nov. 10, 2003

Proposal viewed as threat to wildlife
Associated Press

SIOUX FALLS, S.D. - The Bush administration has proposed excluding many wetlands and seasonal streams from Clean Water Act protection, a move critics say threatens the health of South Dakota wildlife.

The proposal, reported Wednesday by the Los Angeles Times, would narrow the definition of "waters of the United States," excluding wetlands that have no surface connection to streams as well as streams that flow for less than half the year on average.

Critics also fear the change would eliminate "swampbuster" protection and incentive payments for farmers who preserve wetlands in their fields.

"This is about the worst thing that could happen," said Chris Hesla, director of the South Dakota Wildlife Federation in Pierre. He said it would allow farmers to drain any wetland that does not flow into a stream.

"That's all of eastern South Dakota."

But Mike Held of the South Dakota Farm Bureau in Huron said the changes would help farmers.

"We think the federal bureaucracy has far overstepped any intentions Congress had in the 1972 Clean Water Act. It's caused more regulation than would be necessary on farmers," he said.

For example, some farmers have been cited for minor infractions that had little effect on the environment, he said.

Environmentalists and hunting advocates said the rules could affect "swampbuster," a rule that withholds farm payments from growers who drain certain areas. And it could make some wetlands ineligible for the farmable wetlands program, which pays landowners to conserve wetlands.

The proposed changes are an extension of a January 2001 U.S. Supreme Court decision that declared "isolated wetlands" outside the scope of the Clean Water Act.

"We could expect the waterfowl populations in the Dakotas and Montana to be about 50 percent of what they currently are," said biologist Rick Warhurst of Ducks Unlimited in Bismarck, N.D. "That's the worst-case scenario."

Information from: Argus Leader
 
Buzz,

This appears to be a local issue and should be worked out by the local people. There's not enough facts provided by this article for me to make an informed opinion from western Montana. You can't always have your cake and eat it too. Sometimes it requires a little give and take. Maybe Troy can provide us with a little local insight on this issue?

Paul
 
Local issue?

Come on now, my tax dollars are paying for the programs that CONSERVE wetlands. I like that, now the wingnut in the whitehouse doesnt think its appropriate? I think its in every US citizens best interest to demand wetland conservation, absolutely the most critical part of wildlife habitat, clean water, diversity, etc. etc.

Not enough information for you, but its more than enough for me.
 
Buzz,

It appears to me that the "wingnut" in the white house believes the current laws in place are being abused causing the local farmers difficulty in using THEIR land. True or not, I do not know. I did not get enough facts in the L A Times article to form an opinion. Obviously some of the local residents feel there is a problem, or it would not be an issue. How does Daschale (SP?) feel about it? Thanks Buzz for bringing this article up as it is very interesting. Global and local issues and how they relate to wildlife makes for difficult debate. No easy answers.

Paul
 
Buzz,

Your "wingnut" comment is a good example of why you have such a hard time getting any respect on this forum. You have to have some respect for other people and their opinions, to get any respect back. Ever notice when you make a straight answer, without all the name calling, and chest thumping, that you get lots of compliments for your comments?

Paul
 
Paul, Bush is what he is.

I cant help that, only stating the obvious.

What would you call a dude that wants to roll back every environmental law on the books to further his agenda and pay back his multi-million dollar buddies who got him in office?

Hey, look, I aint saying the other camp is any better, and thats the biggest problem of all.

However, the other side, (again with its own huge set of problems), at least gives a crap about environmental issues.

I'll make you feel better by stating that every president thats been elected since I've been old enough to vote was also a "wingnut". I dont discriminate, they get the labels they deserve from me.
 
I tried!

I would have to disagree with both CJ and Buzz. I have respect for the candidates on both sides, winning and lossing. I wouldn't be President for anything. Look at all the different opinions on this forum alone. Multiply it by the rest of America, and throw in the rest of the miserable world and you find yourself in a no win situation. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

I'll give you a little peak at my past voting record for President to let you know where I come from. In the 5 elections that have occured since becoming of legal voting age, my record for voting for the sucessful candidate is 4 and 1. Note, I have voted 5 out of 5 elections. The one loss, I voted Democrat. You guess who that was.

Prior to 9-11-01 I'll be honest, I did not pay much attention to the issues. Too busy trying to make a living and doing my own thing. After 9-11-01 I started to follow the issues more closely. The more I followed them, the more I did not like what has been taking place. I can read through the bull shit and hype. There is no perfect candidate, but if you want my vote, you better be the best.

How about you guy's. How did you vote. If you want a 3rd party, who's your man and what would you like him to stand for.

Paul
 
Living Near Fort Peck and watching the lake be drained in order to float barges downstream I am disheartened by this move. From 1998 to the present Fort Peck is down nearly 41 vertical feet. This is on a resevoir that is 140 miles long and has 1,100 miles of shore line.
The reason we continue to let water go is that people downstream in the State of Missouri do not seem to get it that upstream recreation is of economic value.
Now the master plan is going to be upset again by this firing and the continuing saga of the Missouri River and the upstream interests vs. downstream interests will drag on again for the next 13 year. IT IS A DISGRACE.
Nemont
 
Paul, I have also voted in every election since I was of age...

But, my voting scheme is a bit different. I wont vote for the lesser of the evils.

The reason that politicians get the flak they recieve is because they're lying two-faced bastards. Sorry for being a cynic, but the one thing that I hate is a liar. Name me a president you voted for who wasnt a liar.

Look, I'd have more respect for Bush if he hadnt lied about numerous things, same with his Daddy, same with slick willy, and Reagan as well. A whole group of lieing weasels...the lot.

So, what kind of message do they really send? They yakity-yak about honesty, trust, U.S. ideals, blah, blah, blah...whatever.
rolleyes.gif


Are they representing me? Glad I've never voted for a single one of them, as I absolutely DONT want them representing me.

What I'd like to see is a President that appoints good people to key positions, one that doesnt lie to me, and stands behind the platform they run on.

In my opinion, I've never been given a single decent presidential candidate to vote for in my life...sad but true.

I've found my energy is more wisely spent by writing letters and dealing with local issues. You arent going to take a crook to start with and make him change, wont happen. But, you can have influence over crooks by exposing them and putting pressure on your representatives to sway the crook...which is exactly what I do.
 
Nemont,

It's a tough issue that's for sure. Some at this forum would question you whether FT Peck Res. should exist at all. Like I said before, make one person happy, it will be at the expense of someone else.

Paul
 

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