CO RFW & Public Land

[Jorgy]

So on another post Colorado's Ranching for Wildlife came up about the fact that the Ranches can include land that is public land into their ranch for RFW purposes. The only reason most people here know about this is because of Randy's effort to fly into a piece of land that is public surrounded by Three Forks.

So, in digging up info on this and being a research hound anyway, I can't find anywhere beside some guy denying Randy his permit, that this actually isn't allowed.

My points are this

A) I'm not contesting that the RFW tags are valid on the state/fed land that is enrolled into the RFW program

B) Nowhere does it state in the regs (that I can find) where over the counter or draw tags are not valid on public land enrolled into RFW

C) In the reg book it shows that over the counter tags are good for certain units, and draw tags are good for certain units, nowhere is there a asterisks stating they are not valid on public land withing a RFW area.

D) If Randy wouldn't have been asking for a filming permit, this would have never come up. I would have to think if someone were on public land hunting during legal season on a piece of property within a RFW that the ranch owner would throw a sh#t fit. Might even call the game warden/police. I would think this would be pretty easy to get thrown out of court and a new precedent set.

E) Anyone have a helicopter and a lawyer on retainer?

Ranching for Wildlife Guidelines
http://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Hunting/BigGame/Ranching/RFWGuidelines.pdf

Colorado online hunting brochure
http://case.epaperflip.com/colorado/Parks-and-wildlife/

 

[spook12]

Jorgy, a Google search on this very topic is how I found this merry little band of misfits known as Hunt talk.
In 2010 I was setting up a hunt something very much like Randy had planned. Had a guy lined up to fly me and another guy out of Steamboat. He made a call to the NF office to check on the legality of setting down where I wanted to,they put up some red flags about the plan. Based on his conversation I had MANY conversations with CPW about the legality of my plan and was finally told that because the ''Public'' land I wanted to hunt had been enrolled in a RFW program that I would have only been legal to hunt it with a tag that had been procured through that program.
After I asked what would the outcome be if I followed through with the planed hunt I was told point blank that I would be hunting without a valid tag.
Would I have received a ticket had I forced the issue? Probably not, but I'm not in the habit of intentionally breaking the law.

 

[one ate E grain]

Could you point me towards that other post? I'm assuming you're talking about Three Forks Ranch in GMU 5 on the Little Snake.

 

[Jorgy]

http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=243138&highlight=helicopter

Yep, 3 Forks. I don't know how much land is public, but if you look at a map it's a bunch for sure

 

[one ate E grain]

Thanks so much, still reading, up to page 5 now, have to break to write paper for wife who is going to school. One thing I noticed. Carnivory (RFW) says lands are considered inaccessible if they have no public road or trail. That sucks. I don't need trails. FYI there is a very good map that has come out since that thread was posted, (thanks again for link will finish later) the map is interactive and shows overlays of different sorts of public land. There are two largish State Wildlife Areas, one with public camping, smack dab close to headquarters of Three Forks.

I called Meeker office yesterday who is supposed to be in charge of western half of GMU 5 and woman I talked to thought she might have been up there once (knew nothing about the unit) In the CDW hunting guide to the area they warn people that they need permission to hunt private land in the unit. Why they say that I don't know, maybe they mean public land that is managed by private. Steamboat office manages Eastern half which is National Forest.

Link to new map, play around with it, it's good. http://ndis-flex.nrel.colostate.edu/HuntingAtlas/

 

[----]

It's not quite apples to apples, but there's a similar situation in Montana. There's a lot of accessible public land that only certain hunters can access due to block management rules.

 

[SFC B]

Here is the section of the operating guidelines in question...you were right more access tied up to the benefit of big ranchers ......hooray Also, notice that if they are Fed lands the Fed Land Manager must give consent. Plenty of blame to go around.

C. Federal and State Lands - Ranches may include Federal land in-holdings if they are completely surrounded by the enrolled ranch lands and there is no public access to these lands by legal road or trail. Ranches may also include contiguous or in-holding State Land Board lands, not exceeding 10% of the private deeded contiguous land base of the ranch lands enrolled in RFW. Federal or State Land Board land included in the program will not be counted toward the 10,000 acre minimum. Ranches including Federal or State Land Board land must submit a letter from the Federal land manager with the application for enrollment stating that this land may be included in the RFW contract, or a copy of their SLB Recreation Lease authorizing the use of the land for RFW. Road rights-of-way’s shall not be considered to divide parcels. Corner to corner connected parcels shall not be considered contiguous.

 

[Jorgy]

Here is the section of the operating guidelines in question...C. Federal and State Lands

Yep, I read that and like it or not that is the rule. But this doesn't give the authority to stop anyone from hunting the land with a different license.

My point would be that there are lots of "for instances" in Colorado where you can hunt a certain area with different license types. Nowhere does it say that public land enrolled into the RFW program is solely controlled by the ranch for all big game seasons.

Also, if you look at the opposite of this argument, would you expect a game warden to cite a ranch owner (guide or someone) for hunting on his ranch with a valid license during an established season?

I say this is all a crock of sh*t, that one person interpreted the rules this way so now that is how everyone that knows about this interprets it that way.

I'm going to lose sleep over this now......................Will call DOW tomorrow and report back

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

rich get richer - again

 

[1_pointer]

Yep, I read that and like it or not that is the rule. But this doesn't give the authority to stop anyone from hunting the land with a different license.

My point would be that there are lots of "for instances" in Colorado where you can hunt a certain area with different license types. Nowhere does it say that public land enrolled into the RFW program is solely controlled by the ranch for all big game seasons.

Also, if you look at the opposite of this argument, would you expect a game warden to cite a ranch owner (guide or someone) for hunting on his ranch with a valid license during an established season?

I say this is all a crock of sh*t, that one person interpreted the rules this way so now that is how everyone that knows about this interprets it that way.

I'm going to lose sleep over this now......................Will call DOW tomorrow and report back

My guess is that the state looks at RFW as a stand alone hunting unit, therefore tags for that "unit" are the only ones valid within the RFW boundaries. That is the stance with CWMUs in Utah that contain public lands.

 

[Jorgy]

Ok, I found where it screws us finally this morning

Commission regulation - Chapter 2, Article I, #210

License Restrictions
Ranching for Wildlife licenses are the only licenses valid for hunting of species
under contract on the ranch, except that auction and raffle licenses may be used
when there is not a public season for the same species in progress on the ranch
and antlerless deer or elk licenses may be used on a ranch when authorized in
writing by the Division, subject to the following provisions:

1. There is an established season in which such licenses would be valid in
the Game Management Unit (GMU) in which the ranch is located.
2. Such licenses shall not be used concurrently with any Ranching For
Wildlife season, or at any other time when the Division determines that it
would result in elk, deer, pronghorn, bighorn sheep, moose, or black
bear not being available to Ranching For Wildlife public hunters.
3. The Division determines that any resulting harvest achieved will
contribute to achieving DAU management objectives.


So if someone wanted to do a helicopter cow/doe hunt, you might get permission from the DOW. And I checked last years leftover list and none of unit 5 doe/cow tags made the list so I am a few weeks late to screw with the DOW.

So I guess now I have to figure out who to talk to on the Fed level to air my grievance on them allowing the CO RFW to include our land into the program.

 

[one ate E grain]

I just called the Meeker office again today and again talked to the same woman as yesterday who actually does know a fair amount about the unit.

She knows that the large chunks of BLM are accessible via the Grieves State Wildlife Area and that the entire area is a non motorized area. She also thought that it is perfectly legal to helicopter in to any of the enclosed public lands. It sounded like a concept that people are now more familiar with.

I'm waiting to hear back from the district Fish and Game Officer who has worked the area for over 30 years and should be familiar with all the nuances of RFW etc.

 

[Jorgy]

you can fly into any of the BLM land in a RFW property, you just can't hunt for anything that the ranch has tags for.

So, for Three Forks, you can't fly in and hunt deer, elk or pronghorn - because they hold the only tags that can be used on the RFW land - But, you could hunt bear, turkey, moose or bighorn or anything else you want.

So I am going on a different angle right now. I emailed off a letter to the BLM who does have to approve our Federal lands to be enrolled into the program. In my mind, I laid out good reasoning why the BLM should not be signing off on federal lands being enrolled into the RFW program. I am hoping for a good response back before I start in on the Colorado Wildlife Commission.