Buzz/'chasr curious about your opinion on fire issue

[mtmiller]

I have some strong feelings on this one. I am red carded, but have not made myself available to fire duties. Since both of you have varying backgrounds in the wildfire business I was curious about your opinions on this one.

New fire pay

Bill would raise pay for federal firefighters

By CHRISTINA ALMEIDA
Associated Press writer
RED ROCK CANYON NATIONAL CONSERVATION AREA, Nev. -- Federal firefighters would receive 24-hour pay when assigned to battle wildfires under proposed legislation that is being opposed by the Bush administration.

"It's a very, very tough job," said Rep. Jon Porter, R-Nev., who led a congressional subcommittee hearing Friday to explore the issue of compensation for federal firefighters. "I want to make sure they are compensated properly."

House Resources Committee Chairman Richard Pombo, R-Calif., introduced legislation in January that would provide "portal-to-portal" compensation to pay firefighters from the time they leave the fire station for a wildfire until they return.

Currently, federal firefighters working a wildfire are paid only during working hours, which should not exceed 16 hours a day. They are not paid for time resting or sleeping, even though they generally are required to stay near the fire scene during off hours and can be assigned to a particular wildfire for up to 14 days at a time.

"They may be literally thousands of miles away from home, and yet they are paid as if they are going home each night," said Ryan Beaman, vice president for the International Association of Fire Fighters in southern Nevada.

Although a separate union represents federal firefighters, the IAFF supports the legislation, Beaman said.

"Sitting in the dirt on some mountaintop in Montana is not the same as being able to enjoy the comforts of home," Beaman said. "And yet the compensation is the same."

The legislation would cover employees of the Interior and Agriculture departments, which includes the Bureau of Land Management and the U.S. Forest Service, which together manage about 470 million acres of public land.

The Bush administration opposes the legislation. Nancy Kichak of the Office of Personnel Management said there is no evidence of recruitment or retention problems as a result of the current pay structure, but there are concerns over equity within the federal employee system and the efficient use of taxpayer money.

"Since there is no compelling evidence of widespread staffing problems, we don't see a basis for asking taxpayers to fund the kind of large pay increase (the legislation) would produce," Kichak said.

Casey Judd, business manager for the Federal Wildland Fire Service Association, disputed Kichak's testimony and said several areas are having a difficult time maintaining personnel levels.

The situation "breeds low morale and adds incentive for firefighters to leave the federal system," Judd said, adding the federal government could better manage its firefighting operations to find the necessary funds for the additional pay.

Judd called it ludicrous that firefighters, who often find themselves in life-threatening situations, would be taken off the clock to sleep.

"Firefighters across the country are paid whether they go on call or not," Judd said. "We're not asking for anymore than to be paid while working an emergency."

The proposed legislation calls for a firefighter to be paid 16 hours per day at the regular rate and eight hours of overtime. The change could lead to weekly pay being increased by up to 90 percent while fighting fires.

The minimum starting salary for a wildland firefighter is $24,677 a year, not counting overtime or location.

Porter said he understands the Bush administration's funding concerns, but it was important to consider the nation's federal firefighters.

"I think there's a lot of merit (to the proposed legislation), and I'm going to do all I can to improve the benefits and pay for federal firefighters," he said.

 

[MarvB]

Wow any chance of me getting back pay from 81' through 86' for all those wonderfull moonlit nights??
.....yeah, snowballs chance in h ll

 

[ELKCHSR]

I can't speak for Buzz, but would guess he would say to pull all the fire fighters off the lines and let it go until winter puts it out, or it runs out of fuel...

Of course I would jump on this proposal because I would benifit greatly if it went thru.

But, would state that I am just happy to be jumping onto initial attacks, pushing shots over the hills, working with jumpers, flying in helicoptors, getting pics even the news media would drool over, getting paid to play in the great outdoors and getting paid to crawl around mountains for weeks on end, meeting some great people who have the same likes... etc... etc... etc...

I would like to mention that there are a lot of fires that should be allowed to burn farther than they are allowed to go.

This would start to clean up a lot of the forests that are decaying into a dismal state, and put the environment back into some thing that is far more healthy than I see now, only regulating it around certain structures and townships, letting those who want to live in the middle of it all experience the "true" nature of what that implies and means.

Thanks for asking Craig...

 

[mtmiller]

'chsr, I am not asking about how the feds manage fires, but how federal fire fighters should be compensated under Porters proposed legislation. I know Buzz was active in fire as a federal employee and that is why I am asking his opinion. I was not sure if you were a federal fire fighter or contracted, but was curious whether you felt this is tax money well spent.

I just shake my head when I see GS-11/12 resource specialists (not fire) requested to be on a fire merely because they have connections. Then these guys already making 60K/yr get payed big bucks to post maps or handout equipment. Luckily they still have time to eat catered salmon dinners in the evening. |oo

 

[MarvB]

I'm with you on this one Craig (though you didn't request my opinion....like a'holes we all got one ). I've seen plenty of what you just mentioned above on the fires I've been on (as a GS 5-7-9) and would see a very hard task ahead on where to draw the line between hot work and "support" staff when it comes to 24hr pay.

Have been farmed out to both sides while with the FS and, as you know, there is a HUGE difference at times in the work being done let alone the "comfort level". Big difference between a paper sleeping bag and a mobile command base in that will make ya want to be back home.....

 

[ELKCHSR]

I would 100% agree with you on that part Craig.

I just got off a type I fire incident and the over head in camp mostly had big bellies and the closest they see the fires is the aerials that come in from the satellites.

I was guessing most of them were exactly as you explained, there were an awful lot of odd sounding job titles to, but I don't remember any of them because they weren't really dealing to much with the fires as I saw it.

I am in a special category as the fire crews go, there are only three in the state of Montana with this crew type of classification.

I am volunteer Forest Service, this means we are not a contract crew per say, but one step below the Forest Service Regulars that we see quite often, we are not actually a contract crew as it goes, but do get an AD pay rate instead of a GS...

It took quite a while to figure out the inner workings of how this crew actually operates and which set of rules we follow under.

It is quite complicated and I for sure would have figured out an easier way to set the whole thing up to begin with.

It is considered an urban crew, we are all volunteers as it goes, but get paid when on actual fire calls.

So, our spare time isn't spent painting things green as the Army would put it, if were working we get paid, other wise it's off to our own lives until the whistle blows.

I don't know if it would actually affect this crew on the 24 hour pay thing or not, we would have to wait to see what came down the turn pike...

I wouldn't mind those actually coyoteing on the lines picking up the extra pay, but as you stated, I am sure those others who really don't have any thing to do with the actual fire would figure some way to worm their way's into the system.

 

[BuzzH]

Miller,

I think its a horrible idea, for the reasons you mentioned.

Fire-fighting and the work force has changed a lot since I last fought fire. The only time we clocked 24 hours is when we were on the line fighting fire 24 hours...or in some cases 40+ hours straight. I think todays fire-fighters are becoming more sissified all the time.

Now theres all these pansy-assed rules about 16 hours max, needing drivers after 12 hours of work, etc. etc. All I know is if all these rules would have been around in big fire years like 1988, 1989, 1994...we wouldnt have put out a single fire. I routinely would have broken rule after rule after rule by todays standards.

In any line of work, you should get paid for your time YOU WORK and not a lick more.

Fire-fighters are entitled to the hours they work and nothing more if they dont like it they can always find another job. Funny how people take a job knowing what it entails then bitch and whine about how tough it is and how they should be paid around the clock. What a crock.

 

[ELKCHSR]

LOL Buzz...

We totaly agree on this one...

I'm guessing the people in the higher enchelons are figuring a way to get more $$$ for haning around camp patting themselves on the back for being there.

I've never been paid to sleep, what a concept...

 

[Washington Hunter]

I get 16 hours of pay per day for hanging around camp, and I think that's more than fair. I can't imagine why anyone would think they deserve to get paid for sleeping!

 

[Tom]

At my job, if I go spend a week at a meeting out of town, its similar in time and place, but not risk. I'm away from home. I get paid 8 hours and travel and meals and lodging and the travel and meals and lodging are subject to all kinds of restrictions, depending on the source of the funds. Usually, the meetings are from morning till dark but there are some lunch and dinner events too sometimes. I'm thinking they get 16 hours because of the riskyness of the work? What's risky about standing around camp? Sometimes, the talks at these meetings can be so tedious a person will get paid for sleeping, it happens, somebody falls asleep. Haha.

 

[1_pointer]

This is retarded. NV attracting some attention with the big fires and he's trying to make a bit of a name or himself. They shouldn't get paid if they're not working. IMO, they also need to re-evaluate the work loads when not on fires. They should have more responsibility than to keep their station and engines clean. Fixing/building fence, spraying weeds, maintaining guzzlers, cutting down Russian olives/salt cedar, etc would be a decent start.