BLM, Forest Service and Nevada Ranchers

[Nemont]

So by not signing the contract Mr. Bundy forfeited his grazing permit he had with the BLM. In addition by not signing and paying then pursuing a legal remedy Mr. Bundy forfeited his standing in the Courts of this country.

Mr. Bundy didn't purchase any water rights, they were adjudicated under the state laws of Nevada. Since this land was grazed by Bundy's, at least as they claim, if they filed their water rights and had them adjudicated by the states water court all they had tied up in the water rights is the filing fee and any associated costs of getting the waters rights recorded. Those water rights on adjoining lands do not confer a right to graze public lands period. They simply grant a first in line right to the water, not the grass. On BLM the water rights for public use are reserved, including watering of cattle.

Federal Reserved Water Rights and the Bureau of Land Management:
The following types of federal reserved water rights can occur on BLM lands: public water holes
and springs; mineral hot springs; stock driveways; public oil shale withdrawals; wild and scenic
rivers; national monuments and conservation areas; and wilderness areas.
Probably the most common federal reserved water right for BLM is for public water holes and
springs. These rights were created by executive orders called Public Water Reserves (PWR).
Until 1926, PWRs were created on an ad hoc and sight specific basis. Federal agencies would
identify the springs they wanted reserved and these would be incorporated (by executive order)
into a chronologically numbered Public Water Reserve. Therefore PWRs with early numbers refer
to sight specific reservations. In 1926, a cart blank Public Water Reserve was created through an
executive order by President Coolidge entitled "Public Water Reserves No. 107". PWR 107
ended the sight specific system of reserving springs and water holes. The purpose of PWR 107
was to reserve natural springs and water holes yielding amounts in excess of homesteading
requirements. This order states that "legal subdivision(s) of public land surveys which is vacant,
unappropriated, unreserved public land and contains a spring or water hole, and all land within
one quarter of a mile of every spring or water be reserved for public use". There was no intent to
reserve the entire yield of each public spring or water hole, rather reserved water was limited to
domestic human consumption and stockwatering. All waters from these sources in excess of the
minimum amount necessary for these limited public watering purposes is available for
appropriation through state water law. To date, many of these Public Water Reserves have not
been registered with the state and/or are not adjudicate

The reason that there is no compensation for AUM's is because there is no right or ownership in those AUM's that was transferred to the permitee. If you leased private grazing and then the land owner decided to reduce the number of cattle on their land, would they owe you compensation for not leasing you the grazing they own? The answer is self evident.

If this is your argument then you are simply full of hot air.

Nemont

 

[RobG]

In an open letter, Bundy’s neighbor, Kena Lytle Gloeckner, explained why ranchers are supporting Bundy. Her letter, which has been posted on numerous blogs,said:

There have been a lot of people criticizing Clive Bundy because he did not pay his grazing fees for 20 years. The public is also probably wondering why so many other cowboys are supporting Mr. Bundy even though they paid their fees and Clive did not. What you people probably do not realize is that on every rancher’s grazing permit it says the following: “You are authorized to make grazing use of the lands, under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and covered by this grazing permit, upon your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this grazing permit and payment of grazing fees when due.” The “mandatory” terms and conditions go on to list the allotment, the number and kind of livestock to be grazed, when the permit begins and ends, the number of active or suspended AUMs (animal units per month), etc.

The terms and conditions also list specific requirements such as where salt or mineral supplements can be located, maximum allowable use of forage levels (40% of annual growth), etc., and include a lot more stringent policies that must be adhered to. Every rancher must sign this “contract” agreeing to abide by the TERMS AND CONDITIONS before he or she can make payment. In the early 90s, the BLM went on a frenzy and drastically cut almost every rancher’s permit because of this desert tortoise issue, even though all of us ranchers knew that cow and desert tortoise had co-existed for a hundred+ years. As an example, a family friend had his permit cut by 90%. For those of you who are non-ranchers, that would be equated to getting your paycheck cut 90%. In 1976 there were approximately 52 ranching permittees in this area of Nevada. Presently, there are 3.

Most of these people lost their livelihoods because of the actions of the BLM. Clive Bundy was one of these people who received extremely unfair and unreasonable TERMS AND CONDITIONS. Keep in mind that Mr. Bundy was required to sign this contract before he was allowed to pay. Had Clive signed on the dotted line, he would have, in essence, signed his very livelihood away. And so Mr. Bundy took a stand, not only for himself, but for all of us. He refused to be destroyed by a tyrannical federal entity and to have his American liberties and freedoms taken away.

Also keep in mind that all ranchers financially paid dearly for the forage rights those permits allow – – not rights to the land, but rights to use the forage that grows on that land. Many of these AUMS are water based, meaning that the rancher also has a vested right (state owned, not federal) to the waters that adjoin the lands and allow the livestock to drink. These water rights were also purchased at a great price. If a rancher cannot show beneficial use of the water (he must have the appropriate number of livestock that drinks and uses that water), then he loses that water right. Usually water rights and forage rights go hand in hand.

Contrary to what the BLM is telling you, they NEVER compensate a rancher for the AUMs they take away. Most times, they tell ranchers that their AUMS are “suspended,” but not removed. Unfortunately, my family has thousands of “suspended” AUMs that will probably never be returned. And so, even though these ranchers throughout the course of a hundred years invested thousands(and perhaps millions) of dollars and sacrificed along the way to obtain these rights through purchase from others, at a whim the government can take everything away with the stroke of a pen. This is the very thing that Clive Bundy single handedly took a stand against. Thank you, Clive, from a rancher who considers you a hero.

We get that!!!
It in no way allows him to ignore laws, especially using an armed mob, because doesn't like them. Even the Nevada cattlemen association say he is out of line.

 

[RobG]

Just guessing Mr. Bundy is sharing some of his best management areas on public land?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhU44IxTmhk

Wow, that place looks like a disaster area, and those are the areas he is showing off.

 

[Elkmagnet]

. He refused to be destroyed by a tyrannical federal entity and to have his American liberties and freedoms taken away.

.

American liberties and freedoms taken away?
He was free to purchase or rent ground to graze his cattle. Or sell them and buy U.S. bonds in 1993, this is the United States of America!

In ranchers terms they weaned him off the teat and he took to bucking and hollering!

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Wow, that place looks like a disaster area, and those are the areas he is showing off.

How even one cow could survive on that desolate piece of nothing is unreal and he's showing it off and saying he's using good practices---what a fuggin joke!!!

 

[tjones]

Wow, that place looks like a disaster area, and those are the areas he is showing off.

Must be from the mountain goats he says water there.

 

[BigRack]

Wow, that place looks like a disaster area, and those are the areas he is showing off.

Maybe he should move to Montana where it's not a desert.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Or perhaps he shouldn't graze 6x more cows than the science says the ground can handle.

 

[BigRack]

Or perhaps he shouldn't graze 6x more cows than the science says the ground can handle.

Where is the science at for this piece of ground?

 

[Musket Man]

Im 4th generation in a farming and ranching family. I seem to have a very different view on this then alot of you.

 

[Musket Man]

How even one cow could survive on that desolate piece of nothing is unreal and he's showing it off and saying he's using good practices---what a fuggin joke!!!

Is it worse then "the moon" Topgun? LOL!

 

[BigRack]

Farmers and ranchers who don't take care of the land aren't in business for very long.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Is it worse then "the moon" Topgun? LOL!

Very close Bro, very close!!! You'll never let me live that one down will ya, LOL!

 

[RobG]

Farmers and ranchers who don't take care of the land aren't in business for very long.

LOL, they aren't using their own land. Review tragedy of the commons.

 

[Musket Man]

Very close Bro, very close!!! You'll never let me live that one down will ya, LOL!

Some year when I dont draw anything Im going to get a leftover tag and go hunt it just so I can say I hunted on the moon

Hey if you thing thats bad you should see the places they graze camels in Kuwait and Iraq. It makes Nevada look like irrigated pasture! LOL

 

[Pagosa]

I guess a lot of you don't eat beef or wear leather boots as much as you trash ranchers. No wonder hunters are losing ground to farmers/ranchers that don't allow hunting.

Most ground in the desert southwest, great basin areas has been rested and overgrazed at the same rates. A good number of you jokers could benefit from reading/study "Holistic Management" by Allan Savory and come back to this forum with with an educated idea about domestic and wildlife grazing than showing up with your ass-hats in x-large.

I worked 3 years in Clark, Lincoln, Nye, and White Pine Counties. Its probably the worst place to work/live or attempt ranching. The wild horses, and cheatgrass has destroyed most of the better range. Now the Las Vegas Water District has purchased most of the surface/ground water rights to transport to Sin City. The BLM should be buying back allottments, or implement high stocking rates/short duration impacts.

I have only been hearing limited info on Bundy and it sounds like he needs to pay up.

 

[tjones]

Farmers and ranchers who don't take care of the land aren't in business for very long.

Does this video show he is taking care if the land?

 

[RobG]

Im 4th generation in a farming and ranching family. I seem to have a very different view on this then alot of you.

Assuming you mean the range condition and not taking up arms against the feds... the difference might not be huge. I can't really tell from the video how good/bad he is doing. The resolution is poor and you don't know what time of year it is, and watering areas are usually beat to hell anyway. But it looks like a disaster where nothing but captive cattle would choose to live. Acknowledging, of course, his excellent observation of the awesome fly habitat made by the copious chit piles in the water seep.

Around here public lands cattle seem reasonably well managed, no doubt a big reason is that we aren't in a desert. In SE Idaho a tremendous amount of money and effort was needed to keep the things from reeking havoc on the arid allotments, especially the riparian areas. That effort and money was rarely spent on public land.

 

[spook12]

I guess a lot of you don't eat beef or wear leather boots as much as you trash ranchers. No wonder hunters are losing ground to farmers/ranchers that don't allow hunting.

Something like 95% of all Bovine in the U.S. never set foot on public land.
These public ground Ranchers, need us a heck of alot more than we need them.

 

[BigRack]

Does this video show he is taking care if the land?

Do we know what the land is supposed to look like?