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Bighorn Sheep Being Killed to Save Bighorn Sheep - Heart Wrenching Video

Transmission Short Video

If we want any bighorns left on the landscape, I think we need our federal agencies to implement and enforce separation of domestic and wild sheep.
Getting private sheep and goat owners to believe in the science and/or care is often an issue. I know of people that were paid or under contract to disband hobby flocks in sheep habitat that bought more animals as soon as the contract ended
 
The sheep we have today are as many as we're ever going to have. There is no changing anything. Domestic owners will not be told what to do with their personal property. The best we can hope for is banning domestics on NF, but good luck with taking on the agg industry.

W$F/Gray Thornton said the gloves where coming off when it came to domestic sheep... Then they listed a Duckworth wool vest for sale on their website. Wool from the most controversial domestic/wild/transplanted herd in NA.

W$F needs some more tags to sell, it's for conservation.
 
The sheep we have today are as many as we're ever going to have. There is no changing anything. Domestic owners will not be told what to do with their personal property. The best we can hope for is banning domestics on NF, but good luck with taking on the agg industry.

W$F/Gray Thornton said the gloves where coming off when it came to domestic sheep... Then they listed a Duckworth wool vest for sale on their website. Wool from the most controversial domestic/wild/transplanted herd in NA.

W$F needs some more tags to sell, it's for conservation.
#huntingisconservation

Look if a bunch of rich guys can’t get together once a year wearing their finest bolo ties and show off to each other buying tags and adding more rams to their collections the common man wouldn’t care about sheep
 
Simple problem to fix. Direct Department of Ag to greatly incentivize domestic Movi free herds anywhere near bighorn habitat. Easy redirection of funds from some of the super stupid wasteful farm programs that keep getting renewed. But of course let’s just keep arguing and fighting and never do anything worth while. The stupidity of this all just pisses me off
 
domestic Movi free herds
I agree, and this would be amazing, but this is about like proposing to put herds of unicorns on the landscape, because essentially all domestic sheep herds carry Movi.

Ag and the wool growers associations have an insane amount of political power and influence. There are bighorn sheep conservation groups that are actually making headways for separation via allotment buyouts. It’s sad that allotment buyouts are currently the only effective tool for increasing separation.
 
I agree, and this would be amazing, but this is about like proposing to put herds of unicorns on the landscape, because essentially all domestic sheep herds carry Movi.

Ag and the wool growers associations have an insane amount of political power and influence. There are bighorn sheep conservation groups that are actually making headways for separation via allotment buyouts. It’s sad that allotment buyouts are currently the only effective tool for separation.
Strict testing and herd management practices. They do this all the time with NRCS programs. You don’t think it’s do-able? I do. It would take some money for sure.

My contention is that we piss away billions on farm programs that provide little to no value except subsidizing rich people. Let’s use those funds better
 
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Wool from the most controversial domestic/wild/transplanted herd in NA.
Could you elaborate on Duckworth here? I was under the impression they were one of the "good guys" in the wool industry. However, I am far from knowledgeable on the topic of sheep herds.
 
Strict testing and herd management practices. They do this all the time with NRCS programs. You don’t think it’s do-able? I do. It would take some money for sure.
Have you seen how difficult and intensive it is to eliminate movi from stock? They show this process in the full length Transmission film. You’re never going to force a domestic producer with 10,000 sheep to do this; certainly not with their current political power. What’s the other solution? Cull the infected ones? No producer is going to cull 95% of their flock.

I wish it were different, but this is the current challenge. It’s just politics.
 
Have you seen how difficult and intensive it is to eliminate movi from stock? They show this process in the full length Transmission film. You’re never going to force a domestic producer with 10,000 sheep to do this; certainly not with their current political power. What’s the other solution? Cull the infected ones? No producer is going to cull 95% of their flock.

I wish it were different, but this is the current challenge. It’s just politics.
Not force. Incentivize them. Dangle a cherry for them. I agree. The large flocks are probably better dealt with by allotment buyouts. It’s the small little operators to me that cause the biggest problems. Easiest barrier to entry in areas with great big horn population potential.
 
Could you elaborate on Duckworth here? I was under the impression they were one of the "good guys" in the wool industry. However, I am far from knowledgeable on the topic of sheep herds.
There is plenty on the web about the Helle sheep operation and bighorn transplant in the Gravely range. The legacy of 3 generations of sheep ranching family is more important than wild sheep in an entire range and the enjoyment of hundreds of generations of wildlife enthusiasts. The sheep can not expand from a very small area, if they do they are shot. There is a ton of sheep habitat that can never be utilized because of one families sheep allotments. One family should not have this much control... Somewhere in have a picture of W$F's web page with a Duckworth wool vest for sale. It's no longer for sale BTW.

The sob stories that come from the agg industry win out over wildlife every time.

If you guys think they will test for movi and eliminate it, you're disillusional. We have less than 1000 domestics in AK and just that was proposed. It went over like a lead balloon. It works two ways the animal is in super quarantine (double fence) for life or they kill it. We know how well fences work and tell a 10yo (or worse yet, an adult that acts like one) they have to kill their pet to "potentially" save a wild sheep... Prove that domestic sheep kill wild sheep is all they need to say there is no documented proof of an actual interaction tracing the animals that interacted and resulted in death of wild sheep. Anyone with a brain knows what happened but the domestic sheep owners want proof and there is none. There is a lot of information and false information on both sides of this issue. Like false reporting of test results from labs...

You will never get the agg industry to cave to this anymore than they have so far. Buying out a few allotments isn't stopping hobby farmers from having sheep in wild sheep habitat or right near it... Movi testing, well it sounds good, but look at how brucellosis containment is faring. It's in the wild population, and they give to domestics, allegedly. Ironic.

The only way you will save wild sheep and truly restore them, is getting them listed.
 
There is plenty on the web about the Helle sheep operation and bighorn transplant in the Gravely range. The legacy of 3 generations of sheep ranching family is more important than wild sheep in an entire range and the enjoyment of hundreds of generations of wildlife enthusiasts. The sheep can not expand from a very small area, if they do they are shot. There is a ton of sheep habitat that can never be utilized because of one families sheep allotments. One family should not have this much control... Somewhere in have a picture of W$F's web page with a Duckworth wool vest for sale. It's no longer for sale BTW.

The sob stories that come from the agg industry win out over wildlife every time.

If you guys think they will test for movi and eliminate it, you're disillusional. We have less than 1000 domestics in AK and just that was proposed. It went over like a lead balloon. It works two ways the animal is in super quarantine (double fence) for life or they kill it. We know how well fences work and tell a 10yo (or worse yet, an adult that acts like one) they have to kill their pet to "potentially" save a wild sheep... Prove that domestic sheep kill wild sheep is all they need to say there is no documented proof of an actual interaction tracing the animals that interacted and resulted in death of wild sheep. Anyone with a brain knows what happened but the domestic sheep owners want proof and there is none. There is a lot of information and false information on both sides of this issue. Like false reporting of test results from labs...

You will never get the agg industry to cave to this anymore than they have so far. Buying out a few allotments isn't stopping hobby farmers from having sheep in wild sheep habitat or right near it... Movi testing, well it sounds good, but look at how brucellosis containment is faring. It's in the wild population, and they give to domestics, allegedly. Ironic.

The only way you will save wild sheep and truly restore them, is getting them listed.
Testing seems way more palatable and plausible to me than listing. But I guess I’m a simpleton compared to all you brain trusts that lurk on hunttalk
 
There is plenty on the web about the Helle sheep operation and bighorn transplant in the Gravely range.
I was unaware that was tied to Duckworth.

Prove that domestic sheep kill wild sheep is all they need to say there is no documented proof of an actual interaction tracing the animals that interacted and resulted in death of wild sheep. Anyone with a brain knows what happened but the domestic sheep owners want proof and there is none.
A familiar story line...
 
Y'all know I'm home sick and taking some powerful meds. I ask your forgiveness in advance. Don't think I'm filtering right and don't really care.

I keep thinking about the history and politics of Brucellosis.

Cattlemen bring the disease to Montana over a century ago and it is transmitted to wild elk and bison.
Draconian regulation is placed on the ranching industry to eradicate Brucellosis.
Domestics are then declared Brucellosis free.
Wildlife are not.
Now the AG lobby trolls that wildlife is dangerous to the industry.
Every bison that leaves YNP is at risk of being shot first and tested later.

(There are some interesting co-operatives going on right now which build communal emergency funds for ranchers who have to kill or quarantine their beef herds. It can take years of a ranch's annual budget with no way to sell beef until they are certified disease free again. )

Let's apply this to Wild Sheep: (It's not a perfect analogy, but let's try it out. )

Sheepmen bring MOVI to the wild sheep long ago. Domestics can tolerate it, wild sheep cannot.
Let's say the FDA or USDA implements a 100% MOVI free rule for domestic sheep and goats.
Wool Growers' herds would be quarantined until they are certified clean. No product could be removed from the ranch or sold.
First off the American Farm Bureau would decisively end the career of any politico who supported such legislation.
But say it did pass as legislation or became policy.
The next logical step in this progression would be to declare wild sheep a risk to domestic herds and call for their removal if they left their defined ranges. There will not likely be any more range expansion for wild herds lest they "risk" domestics.

This is not all that different than what is happening now, where a wild sheep seen cavorting with domestics is culled.
The Farm Bureau is the 800 pound gorilla now, and they would still be after such a scenario. Probably stronger.

What's the solution?
Not punitive regulation or policy. Wild Sheep advocates will never bully the AFB into a corner. Even that 50 sheep "hobby grower" is a PR disaster talking to a RFD-TV reporter about how the green decoys and gubmint took away his little herd. "And they weren't even sick..."

This will require nuance and negotiating. Finding groups of wool growers willing to do the right thing for wild herds. Finding ways to reward them for doing what is right.
Even that seems hopeless to me at the moment.

---------

The biggest irony and indicator of the hopelessness of this fight is that the term "Domestic" to applies to farm animals. Invasives in every way. Domesticated, sure, but not NATIVE. In 100 years, when the wild sheep are gone, someone in the Nevada Legislature will get a letter from a 4th grade class suggesting that the "Majestic" feral sheep be named the state mammal of Nevada. They will write a bill and it will get to the Governor's desk.

Lobby groups will say that feral sheep are the descendants of the great herds of wild sheep that once roamed the land. Only a meanie that would buzzkill a fourth grader could deny this! They are NOT Feral, NOT Invasive! They are the children of those noble creatures which were killed off by evil white men with guns for the sake of "Trophies"

And if you think feral horses scorch the earth, you should follow a flock of meadow maggots through the high country.
 
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Testing seems way more palatable and plausible to me than listing. But I guess I’m a simpleton compared to all you brain trusts that lurk on hunttalk
What's your plan for testing? Because unless you get everyone to comply, and quarantine and/or kill it's a waste of time. Cattle ranchers have done well with brucellosis, but only because it effects their cattle (and it can effect humans). Movi doesn't effect domestic sheep in a substantial way. There is no vaccine (unlike brucellosis), so the only incentive is to test to protect wild sheep.

When testing was proposed in AK a few years, about of 7 in 10 opposed it even if it was paid for because the end result was quarantine or kill. The number of veterinarians who opposed testing and quarantine was staggering. Like 50%...

Who pays for the quarantine? How many hobby farmers will kill their animals? What's your solution or plan?

If COVID taught is anything, it's that government compliance and forcing people to do something doesn't work. For example, rabies vaccination is required, by law, for dogs in every state, Yet, compliance is maybe 50% for something this simple and cheap ($100 every 3 years).
 
What's your plan for testing? Because unless you get everyone to comply, and quarantine and/or kill it's a waste of time. Cattle ranchers have done well with brucellosis, but only because it effects their cattle (and it can effect humans). Movi doesn't effect domestic sheep in a substantial way. There is no vaccine (unlike brucellosis), so the only incentive is to test to protect wild sheep.

When testing was proposed in AK a few years, about of 7 in 10 opposed it even if it was paid for because the end result was quarantine or kill. The number of veterinarians who opposed testing and quarantine was staggering. Like 50%...

Who pays for the quarantine? How many hobby farmers will kill their animals? What's your solution or plan?

If COVID taught is anything, it's that government compliance and forcing people to do something doesn't work. For example, rabies vaccination is required, by law, for dogs in every state, Yet, compliance is maybe 50% for something this simple and cheap ($100 every 3 years).
I would redirect the “billions and billions” (joke-I would need to actually look at the money it would take to pull this off) wasted on existing farm programs utilized by large corporations and rich farmers and set up a testing and compliance program so lucrative, they would want to comply. Ol dolly the ewe tests positive. She becomes chops and the owner is compensated appropriately . Something along those lines. Really incentivize a closed movi free herd. Challenging? Yup. But until movi is removed from bighorn sheep habitat, I think bighorn recovery piddles along and reverses. If using the ESA becomes the only option, then I say status quo is better than that.
 
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