JoseCuervo
New member
I think the High School in Council, ID is heated by wood chips and a boiler system.
Beetle Killed Forests, wow.
- Thread starter smalls
- Start date
BRI
Well-known member
CHSR - fact is you are wrong. I can show you areas within 5 miles of Anaconda that were pre-commercially thinned in the 70's and EVERY tree greater than 7" has been killed. Even in the early 80's when the USFS region 1 was harvesting over 1 billion board feet of timber per year, there was a significant MPB outbreak in the NW portion of the state (where a lot of that harvest was).
if active forest management happened the way you appear to be advocating, then much of the landscape would be similar to that just west of Anaconda? Do you like what you see in Barker Creek, Twin Lakes? The beetles aren't too bad there, especiallly since there isn't many LP greater than 7" DBH left. Is that what you want the landscape to look like? How is the quality of hunting there?
1-Pointer - Most everything I've see on biofuels and Co-generation plants lately is simply the open market price for energy is currently lower than the minimum they could produce it for. And I believe one of the biggest problems is with the cost of getting the material from the woods to the co-gen plants. An average cost of getting the biomass material to the plant is around $38-$42 per ton. Until they can get that down below $30, I've heard it is just not that viable of an option.
I think the biomass burners that schools and public buildings are installing are a great thing. The only thing is unless it's a big system, they don't take much material to operate. I don't know the actual numbers but to run the schools there might only take 20 truckloads of material. While it's a good thing, I don't imagine it would have too much of an impact on forest management.
if active forest management happened the way you appear to be advocating, then much of the landscape would be similar to that just west of Anaconda? Do you like what you see in Barker Creek, Twin Lakes? The beetles aren't too bad there, especiallly since there isn't many LP greater than 7" DBH left. Is that what you want the landscape to look like? How is the quality of hunting there?
1-Pointer - Most everything I've see on biofuels and Co-generation plants lately is simply the open market price for energy is currently lower than the minimum they could produce it for. And I believe one of the biggest problems is with the cost of getting the material from the woods to the co-gen plants. An average cost of getting the biomass material to the plant is around $38-$42 per ton. Until they can get that down below $30, I've heard it is just not that viable of an option.
I think the biomass burners that schools and public buildings are installing are a great thing. The only thing is unless it's a big system, they don't take much material to operate. I don't know the actual numbers but to run the schools there might only take 20 truckloads of material. While it's a good thing, I don't imagine it would have too much of an impact on forest management.
BRI...
You're not reading what I write, only glossing over and finding fault...
Your also browsing the edges of my posting and using that as the main case of your debate (extremes in your organization have created this way of thought and it's just plain wrong)...
Don't be an apologist, just man up and face the fact that a huge amount of mistakes were made on management practices (leave alone policies, and to much aggressive movement to upper management without understanding the deeper sense of the issues)
Without a deep well balanced understanding of the topic you want to master, only creates gloss with no substance
A simple balance instead of this yo-yo approach I see constantly would be far better
You will have to show me where I stated it would have "Prevented/Ended" as you alluded to
Bottom line is in the case you mentioned, the trees have a shallow root system, lack of water, age, stress, attack by beetles, death...
Also, the area you're talking about is almost all Lodge Pole and some Douglas Fir
I know, that's where I get my fire wood, I don't hunt it, too many road hunters and you've been around long enough to know that's not how I hunt
Question BRI...
Who owns the ground you're talking about?
What type of practice would you have implemented?
I don't think it's so much the management practices in this area you're talking about that upsets you on how it's taken care of, I think ownership is more the issue...
You're not reading what I write, only glossing over and finding fault...
Your also browsing the edges of my posting and using that as the main case of your debate (extremes in your organization have created this way of thought and it's just plain wrong)...
Don't be an apologist, just man up and face the fact that a huge amount of mistakes were made on management practices (leave alone policies, and to much aggressive movement to upper management without understanding the deeper sense of the issues)
Without a deep well balanced understanding of the topic you want to master, only creates gloss with no substance
A simple balance instead of this yo-yo approach I see constantly would be far better
You will have to show me where I stated it would have "Prevented/Ended" as you alluded to
Bottom line is in the case you mentioned, the trees have a shallow root system, lack of water, age, stress, attack by beetles, death...
Also, the area you're talking about is almost all Lodge Pole and some Douglas Fir
I know, that's where I get my fire wood, I don't hunt it, too many road hunters and you've been around long enough to know that's not how I hunt
Question BRI...
Who owns the ground you're talking about?
What type of practice would you have implemented?
I don't think it's so much the management practices in this area you're talking about that upsets you on how it's taken care of, I think ownership is more the issue...
Last edited:
S
steamingutpile
Guest
If you look very closely at a lot of what is going on in the forests of the nation you will find at the heart of it an invasive species. The ash borer in NY is from Asia came here in wooden packing crates the same way fire ants came from Brazil. And when forests are stressed due to drought etc they become even more susceptable to these foreign invaders. The pine beetle the ash borer and etc are invasive species they have no natural enemies that prey upon them so given those conditionds their populations explode. And the result is devastation of forests.
I was told the Pine beetle out here has always been around, all the cards happened to be lined up in perfect unison for this little bugger to explode
If it is an invader from another place, then it's an entirely different beast
Time to hit the research and find out...
If it is an invader from another place, then it's an entirely different beast
Time to hit the research and find out...
It didn't take long...
Looks to be two different beetles creating the same havoc Dendroctonus ponderosae and Dendroctonus brevicomis LeConte
Here's a couple articles to strengthen everything I've stated in my above posts for those who are always looking to find fault and poke holes in others knowledge, or if your just interested...
Looks like the best way to combat these guys is to let them run their course now
As with any predator, they will eventually clean up the forests on their own, fires and logging will finish it up
Western Pine Beetle
Mountain Pine Beetle
Looks to be two different beetles creating the same havoc Dendroctonus ponderosae and Dendroctonus brevicomis LeConte
Here's a couple articles to strengthen everything I've stated in my above posts for those who are always looking to find fault and poke holes in others knowledge, or if your just interested...
Looks like the best way to combat these guys is to let them run their course now
As with any predator, they will eventually clean up the forests on their own, fires and logging will finish it up
Western Pine Beetle
Mountain Pine Beetle
Thanks for the info on co-gen. From the few meetings I've been to, the transportation costs are definitely a concern. Luckily, the places they are considering for the plants have literally TONS of JUOS within a short distance.
I also agree on the biomass burners for larger buildings. While a good thing, they alone won't have an impact on management. My sister has one on their place and it's saved them a whole lot of money this past winter. If I didn't live in the middle of town, especially one that have green, red, etc burn days, I would definitely consider one for heating alone. I know where the fuel is to be had!!
We are having the same problem here with the bark beetle. Might be the same beetle, I am not a bug specialist by any means. They are affecting the areas right at the timberline mostly but are working their way north and higher. The lack of precip and mild winters is letting it progress. this last winter was almost back to normal, so maybe the change has begun. the areas they have infested is remarkable. To see large stands just crippled by these beetles is unbelievable.
What I think is the best thing about all of this (there's always a silver lining if you're willing to look for it)
Over the last 70 +/- years, the forests have been slowly taking over all the huge parks in all these regions
I've even heard ologists talking about this and FS agencies clearing out areas because the quakes' and poplars are being over taken and smothered by these vast expanses of evergreen forests
The cool part to witness is that no matter how much man wants to monkey around with the system, if left alone, will rebalance over time
I believe that's what's going on now
I would tell those in the science fields to quit complaining about what's taking place and watch the changes happen right before their eyes, makes good science in the long run anyway (I will have to put in a disclaimer of sorts, since a few people here are very sensitive and take everything stated very literally; "Not all are complaining")
In the end, it's a good thing, yes there will be large scale fires for many years to come as the environment yo-yo's back and forth, but eventually we will have better hunting grounds and healthier animals to show for it
Over the last 70 +/- years, the forests have been slowly taking over all the huge parks in all these regions
I've even heard ologists talking about this and FS agencies clearing out areas because the quakes' and poplars are being over taken and smothered by these vast expanses of evergreen forests
The cool part to witness is that no matter how much man wants to monkey around with the system, if left alone, will rebalance over time
I believe that's what's going on now
I would tell those in the science fields to quit complaining about what's taking place and watch the changes happen right before their eyes, makes good science in the long run anyway (I will have to put in a disclaimer of sorts, since a few people here are very sensitive and take everything stated very literally; "Not all are complaining")
In the end, it's a good thing, yes there will be large scale fires for many years to come as the environment yo-yo's back and forth, but eventually we will have better hunting grounds and healthier animals to show for it
dan.kirkpatrick
Well-known member
does anybody out there know if some or all of these colorado fires are in beetle areas?
