Beetle Killed Forests, wow.

[smalls]

For fathers day I loaded the wife and daughter up and went for a drive down into the Beaverhead-Deer Lodge NF between Helena and Butte. I wish I would have taken some pics because it is simply unbelievable to look in every direction and see nothing but mountains the color of burnt umber. What the hell will happen to the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of acres of trees that are absolutely lifeless? Is the Forest Service essentially waiting for a catastrophic fire to clean out the dead stuff (I can't imagine that all the fire crews and retardant in the nation could stop a fire if one started in those trees). In fact, if there is a lightning strike in Butte this summer with a stiff south wind, the city of Helena is going to have flames licking the south hills in a very short amount of time.

Even in the last 4 years that I've been in Helena, the advancement of the infestation and death of the Helena National Forest and B-DL National Forest is incredible. On a recent drive up to Lincoln, entire hillsides have gone from relatively "healthy" looking (to a layman like me) to completely dead and entirely needleless in a matter of 24 months.

Are cycles like this normal... natures way of creating open spaces? Or is it somehow the fault of the NFS and mismanagement of our forests?

 

[Oak]

Global warming!

It looks just the same in south central Wyoming and northern Colorado. It will be interesting to see what happens with a dry summer and a spark. It's been extremely wet this year, so we have a reprieve.

 

[BuzzH]

smalls,

To answer a few of your questions, you need to understand the complexity of forest systems.

I seriously doubt the forests you're referring to are "lifeless"...just need to look closer. In Montana, with the exception of YNP, there are not many pure Lodgepole habitat types. All are usually a sub-alpine fir habitat type. Which means that most lodgepole stands will eventually move to a sub-alpine fire climax.

I'd be willing to bet that if there isnt already, there soon will be a bunch of subalpine fir coming in...likely already there.

Are the cycles normal???

I think so. What we're experiencing right now is a "perfect storm" of circumstances. Mountain Pine Beetle (the main culprit) attack trees based largely on 3 criteria...size, age, and elevation the trees are located. The trees/stands at greatest risk are usually lowest in elevation, larger in size, and also oldest.

Montana and much of the west has a lot of trees/stands that fall into the criteria mentioned above. Combined with mild winters (extended cold snaps kill bine beetles), and drought...its just the perfect combination for some pretty significant changes in forest dynamics. The outbreaks have been more widespread due to drought and mild winters.

Is it anything to panic about?

I dont think so. Even if and when fires happen, lodgepole regenerate by stand replacement disturbance. If/when the fires happen, the lodgepole will come back quickly, just look at yellowstone for an example. Sea of green not long after the '88 fires.

Lastly, is it the FS's fault???

Only if you believe they can change weather patterns. I will say that fire suppression MAY be a contributing factor to the intensity of the outbreak you're seeing in parts of MT, WY, and CO. So, yes, by suppressing fire its possible some of the blame could fall on that. But, thats the direction the public has demanded the FS take...suppress all fires and do it right now. So, who gets the blame?

The other thing to keep in mind is that while the places you looked at dont look that good, over-all the interior West is in pretty fair shape. When its in YOUR back yard, yeah, it looks grim, no question and no denying that. I'm seeing the same thing around here. But, I also see plenty of areas that arent bad at all.

I dont believe there is much that can be done to address it. Very complicated issue. Forests are not static, they change, for better or worse.

I will say this, we're seeing some significant trend data on our large-scale inventory. Which is pretty amazing considering how spread out our samples are.

 

[Spitz]

Great info Buzz. Thanks.

 

[smalls]

Interesting Buzz. So are the lodgepole the only trees affected? In the area I was in (southwest of Boulder) there were many hillsides that one could find few if any live trees. We're there fir's growing under them that I couldn't see... I don't know.

Do you think the volume of dead standing logs will impact how FS responds to a fire in that forest, perhaps letting it burn to "clear out" and make way for new stands? Or is there value in allowing the logs to decompose slowly and naturally without fire?

I know the forest will rebound, but it sure is fugly for the time being. Lifeless was the wrong modifier there as I will say the undergrowth is amazing this year with thick green grass most everywhere you go, complete with songbirds and mosquitoes (yes, elk and deer here or there too).

It is encouraging to hear the health of the west's forests are in good shape overall.

 

[BuzzH]

smalls,

Mostly lodgepole, but there is some sort of bug or crud that work on every tree species. Mountain pine beetle hit other species too, but not as readily as lodgepole. There most likely are small trees growing that you couldnt/didnt see. Might not be too, hard telling without looking for myself. Intuitively, I'd thing there were probably some small trees there.

The forest service has changed how they fight fire drastically since I last actively fought fire (1994). Some argue for the better, some say for the worse...I have my opinion, but I'll leave it at...priorities have changed big-time.

I dont think there will be a fundamental change in how they fight fire in specific areas though. Also, its pretty rare when the boles of the trees are completely consumed by fire. Whats left after a fire is more than enough bio-mass to provide carbon cycling, micro-habitats, etc. etc. There isnt a forest out there that functions "naturally without fire". All that I've ever seen have absolutely evolved with periodic fires of varying frequencies and intensities. We've upset much with frequency and intensity through management practices and fire suppression, but fire isnt a foreign thing to any forest.

Again, lodgepole regenerate through STAND REPLACEMENT disturbance. In other words the mature trees are wiped out and a whole new crop take its place. Thats why lodgepole stands are largely homogenous, all about the exact same size, and also the same age. Burning will definately speed up lodgepole regeneration...serotinous cones, blah, blah, blah.

Agreed that it is fugly for the time being...pretty fugly after a fire too...clearcuts are hardly any less fugly.

 

[noharleyyet]

Great info Buzz. Thanks.

Absolutely...

 

[BRI]

The mountain pine beetle is the most aggressive beetle species out there. They are hammering the Ponderosa pine now too. I suspect it's mostly because the beetle populations are so high and there's not that much food left for them in the LP. It's really kind of a bummer, I had a timber sale last year where we left a beautiful stand of 2-3' diameter pine and most have all been hit and killed by beetles.

Great Falls is experiencing a huge problem with their scotch pines right now too, I think it's over 60% of the Scotch pine in the city have been infested and killed. In fact, the DNRC Ponderosa Pine seed orchard in Missoula is getting significantly impacted as well and that's a nice-well spaced highly managed area.

Mountain Pine Beetles have always been around but like Buzz said, the conditions are so perfect right now with the drought and mild winters. Even if the FS were to attempt to harvest more, there are only 7 or 8 large mills in Montana to handle that volume. And with the timber industry so closely linked with the housing market, no one is buying lumber. It's a no win situation.

As for the fires, my take is the danger isn't as much now as it is later. Usually it's hard for a fire to really get up and run in those LP dominated stands. They need ladder fuel and a tremendous wind event to sustain a crown fire. What worries me more is when the trees fall over and then a fire event happens. At that point the fuel on the ground will cause the fire to be so hot, soil sterilization could happen and the area would take a lot longer to recover.

 

[indian larry]

I was down in CO this last weekend and seen alot of dead trees. Some of the areas we were in it killed out hillside after hillsides and it really looked bad. Once i started hiking through it i noticed it wasnt such a bad thing there was already alot of new growth once you got into the trees, alot of 3-8 footers popping up everywhere. I think that its going recover alot faster then people think

 

[Ridge Runner]

Didn't they go through this same thing up in BC a few years ago? Very interesting topic thanks for the info.

 

[steamingutpile]

NY is having a problem with a beetle from Asia. Ash borer We can't transport firewood more than fifty miles. Hurtin my cousins firewood business. Bad enough no ones cutting cause the sawmill ain't buyin. But then the mileage restrictions on top of it and he can't get the wood.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Great pics Larry they seem indicative of almost everywhere I look out here

The Pine beetles are only secondary pathogens attacking stressed plants

Anything stressed (by drought in this case) is going to get sick or diseased, Pine beetles girdle a tree from the inside eating the cambium layer which will kill its host

Since logging has all but ended in this country and for 60-70 years the mantra was to put out any and al fires as fast they could

Man has set up this scenario by trying to save the world

It's Mother Nature who is now righting this wrong by thinning out the trees in the best way she knows how

The fires that will ensue have already been taking place to a smaller degree (I get to witness them every year and they are getting bigger)

To blame a beetle or loggers for the devastation that will no doubt be coming is wrong

It's all of those individuals who think they're good stewards of the environment by doing nothing are the real culprits, they have been fools all and for the life of them "WILL NOT ADMIT FAULT"

If you're going to be the steward of an area, you have to properly maintain it, not thru emotional outbursts and brow beating, but by all means at their disposal

This includes running cattle (since the bison have been taken out of the picture)
This includes letting fires burn on a larger scale (which if kept in control will take larger forces to keep it from getting out of control)
This includes logging by thinning

 

[BuzzH]

The Pine beetles are only secondary pathogens attacking stressed plants

Man has set up this scenario by trying to save the world

To blame a beetle or loggers for the devastation that will no doubt be coming is wrong

It's all of those individuals who think they're good stewards of the environment by doing nothing are the real culprits, they have been fools all and for the life of them "WILL NOT ADMIT FAULT"

If you're going to be the steward of an area, you have to properly maintain it, not thru emotional outbursts and brow beating, but by all means at their disposal

This includes running cattle (since the bison have been taken out of the picture)
This includes letting fires burn on a larger scale (which if kept in control will take larger forces to keep it from getting out of control)
This includes logging by thinning

Thats some funny stuff right there...I dont care who you are.

For starters, in bad outbreaks (like we currently have), otherwise healthy trees are hit by beetles without any other pathogens working on them.

The beetles are to blame, all those trees in IL pictures were not girdled by enviromentalists or loggers...Mountain pine beetles did it all. If there is any blame it is strictly a weather issue, thats the biggest factor. We've not had any significant and extended cold snaps in MT, WY, an CO for quite a while. No cold weather, higher populations of MPB...more beetles...bigger areas that are hit, healthier trees are hit by the increased infestation. Combine that with long-term drought...hard to blame any manager for not being able to control the weather. This is largely a weather/climate issue, most anyone with any background in forestry would agree.

Running cattle on forests will not control MPB, as has been stated here.

Letting fire burn on a larger scale is likely not going to work well either. The public has demanded that the FS, State, BLM, etc. put out wild land fires. There is more at stake now, urban interface areas, summer cabins, etc. etc. etc. Pretty tough for the FS, State, etc. to let wildfires burn up sub-divisions in places like Aspen and Vail Colorado...all under the argument of "letting nature control beetle infestations". Pretty tough sell.

Last, controlling it with logging by thinning. Not going to happen for many reasons, the largest being that "thinning" lodgepole simply doesnt work. Thin a stand of lodgepole to any significant degree and you're better off clear-cutting it. Selectively logging or logging by thinning in lodgepole stands is akin to herding cats...simply a waste of time. Within a couple years of thinning commercial sized lodgepole, they'll windthrow.

Also, the FS can put up all the sales they want but at the current time, it would be about pointless. As BRI pointed out, with the housing market being in the crapper right now, and the lumber industry tied so closely with it...no one is willing to bid on marginal sales. With lodgepole and PP you have a couple year window, at most, to get those trees hit with beetles to a mill. If not, they blue-stain and are about worth nothing. Also, its fair to note that many of the stands being hit have poor quality lodgepole or small trees that have less, if any, real commercial value. Also, as BRI has pointed out, there arent many mills in MT or CO or WY that could handle the volumes we're talking. With less mills and high fuel costs, transporting logs to the few scattered mills is also a major problem, in particular with current stumpage prices.

I'm sure BRI could add some more valuable information to this thread, and I hope he does.

The bottom line is, that an unfortunate series of events, nearly entirely tied to sustained drought and mild winters, is where the blame lies.

Its ridiculous and irresponsible to try to blame this situation on the FS, BLM, environmentalists, loggers, etc. etc. etc.

It is what it is.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Yep...

Pass the buck...

Seems to be something you're really good at

If you had actually read what I posted instead of knee jerking your answer as you usually do Buzz, you'd have noted that I had said the plants have to be stressed first


As with anything, when there are far too many predators (insects in this case) of any sort, they will start attacking healthy populations of any thing when their numbers grow to large, thats a simple and well documented given

i.e. Wolf/Predator/Overhunting problem with the elk in the Bitterroot thread for instance

Doesn't matter what's going or not going to happen, it's what should have been happening, starting a long time ago

You were the one I knew would make all sorts of excuses for sins of the past, placing blame on everyone and everything else, except of course where it really needs to sit

My question to you would be...

Who has been solely responsible for the last 70 years in regard to forest health and welfare and been extremely proud of the fact?

Who's fault is it if members of this organization caved to political pressures from whatever source to save their own skins instead of doing what they knew was right?

Maybe they should have been policed and held accountable inside their own ranks

I know, it's your organization, so there can be no fault or blame from the higher ups (according to you)

I also know why you take such offence at any accusations...

You are one of the bureaucrats who have made or helped make rules and regulations to protect the inner sanctity of your organization instead of doing what in the end would be the right thing to do

Maybe instead of pointing fingers, you should be helping clean out some of the dead wood sucking the system dry from the inside (unless of course you are only really interested in your job and security and everything you've said you stood for in the last many years is only a farce)

Can't have it both ways bud...

Not when people are watching and can see the difference...

The big picture is, it should have started a long time ago, not in the last ten years or less

If these forests had truly been maintained properly, utilizing the tools I listed in my above post, this may have still taken place, but would have been lessened to a large degree...

 

[BuzzH]

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone...99% of the problem is weather conditions...drought, mild winters. There arent excuses and I'm not making one for the weather. In the case of lodgepole, not a whole lot that could be done to prevent it. Like I said, pretty tough to do any kind of commercial thin without wrecking the whole stand or taking a huge risk from high mortality via windthrow, or even heavy snows.

Also, with rotation ages of 80+ years in LP stands, how would you recommend the FS thin them and make any kind of short-term profit? How about any long-term profit? How many times do you recommend entering a stand to reduce the risk of beetles? How much do you suppose it would cost per acre to pre-commercially thin a lodgepole stand? Whats the correct age to thin? How about spacing? How about doing it without a budget? Whats an acceptable loss of the trees that you leave? 20%? 30%? What if the whole stand windthrows? Anyone responsible for that?

Yeah, its just as simple as thinning and letting fires burn...good grief.

I specifically said its irresponsible to blame anyone for the current situation. Its just happened at a bad time when even salvage operations are not always a viable option. Cant log trees that nobody is willing to buy. The FS could set up all kinds of sales, but to get those trees out within a year, or two at most, would be impossible when they arent worth anything. No bidders, no sale, that simple.

Same with the fire situation...you dont change 100 years of fire suppression in 2 years. Things are changing and things are being done, but you cant expect to fix something over-night that took 100 years to break. In particular when there so many people with summer cabins, homes, etc. right up next to the FS, BLM, and State forest lands.

To say that the beetle outbreak and fire situation is complex is an absolute gross under-statement.

 

[shoots-straight]

We have logging companies that have dropped whole logging sales on the ground and walked away from them, leaving the trees there to rot. We have salvage sales that were bid out and half logged, then the loggers walked. Talk about a fire mess now. The middle East Fork sale was haled as a great way to prevent fire, it's now a bomb waiting for a fuse. I'm almost to the point that we need to set a fire to the whole mess every year just as the Indians did. I was in the Pintlers this week, talk about downfall. trees are falling all over the place. Soon they'll be nothing but thick LP and downfall. Great habitat. It needs to re burn ASAP.

 

[1_pointer]

Also, the FS can put up all the sales they want but at the current time, it would be about pointless. As BRI pointed out, with the housing market being in the crapper right now, and the lumber industry tied so closely with it...no one is willing to bid on marginal sales. With lodgepole and PP you have a couple year window, at most, to get those trees hit with beetles to a mill. If not, they blue-stain and are about worth nothing. Also, its fair to note that many of the stands being hit have poor quality lodgepole or small trees that have less, if any, real commercial value. Also, as BRI has pointed out, there arent many mills in MT or CO or WY that could handle the volumes we're talking. With less mills and high fuel costs, transporting logs to the few scattered mills is also a major problem, in particular with current stumpage prices.

Has there been any interest, especially now with ARRA funds, for using lodgepole as a biofuel for power generation? I know in UT a pretty big proposal has been given for using juniper for biofuel, but the requirements are in the millions of tons/year that would need to be had. I'll find out in the next couple of months if it looks like this will gain any traction. BLM in UT could easily meet the demand, just have to see how serious the proponents are...

FWIW, I''ve helped plan/design a project to thin some LP and subalpine fir in the hopes of re-evigorating some aspen regen. It's been cut and should be burnt this late fall/winter. It's only about 125acres now, but that analysis area is well over 1000. If it produces the expected results the USFS and State lands are interested in joining the effort. I know those acreages seem like a pittance, but these are stands lower and in a matrix of mostly sagebrush.

 

[ELKCHSR]

LOL Buzz...

Your right, the big problem at the present is weather and bugs
Proper thinning and burning long ago would have lessened fuel loading making in the end, less intense fires, giving existing trees and other plants less competion for resources (light/water/nutrients)
That boils down to management of resources for the long haul, not just for some ones political career at the moment
Of course we'd like to make things as difficult as possible, justifies a lot of unnecessary jobs and makes a confusing mess of the truth
Simplifying an issue makes it easier for most to understand
Removes elitist types who don't want anyone else understanding an issue on a deeper level on simpler terms
Complicating an issue beyond what it actually is, helps mask the a of knowledge supposed experts are thought to posses, making it easier to place blame and hide behind useless clutter


1Pointer...

I've seen logging slash piles around here that are huge, out on the Pacific coast, it's an almost unimaginable amount

If we're going to spend the money creating biofuel, it would make sense to utilize all logging slash instead of burning it off after the first snow flies

 

[shoots-straight]

There's plans down here to put our FS Headquarters for the Bitterroot National forest in Darby, build a power plant that works off the bio mass from the forest and run both that building and the schools. Sounds good on paper. The town of Darby will build the new building and lease to FS.

 

[1_pointer]

There's plans down here to put our FS Headquarters for the Bitterroot National forest in Darby, build a power plant that works off the bio mass from the forest and run both that building and the schools. Sounds good on paper. The town of Darby will build the new building and lease to FS.

I'd be interested in how that goes! Keep us updated.