BigHornyRam
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Just in case the weasel decides to nuke his post, we have backup!
posted 04-23-2003 08:01
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's what the $ is used for:
"BOISE — An Idaho bighorn sheep tag went for $90,000 at auction this year, and most of that money will go to increasing the numbers of sheep in the Hells Canyon area, Fish and Game officials announced this week.
The hunting tag was auctioned at the Foundation for North American Wild Sheep´s annual meeting, and $85,000 of the proceeds will go to the Hells Canyon Initiative.
The project was launched in the mid-1990s by Idaho, Washington and Oregon, the Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management and the foundation. More than 800 bighorn sheep in 15 different herds are estimated to live in Hells Canyon.
The amount of money the tags draw varies from year to year, based on the hunting areas available."
You might be amazed to know that there are hunters who are actually opposed to selling a bighorn sheep tag at auction for projects like the Hell's Canyon Initiative. Ten years ago there were probably less than 100 sheep in the canyon. There could be as many as 5000 in a few years. Maybe more.
The main obstacle is welfare ranchers who don't want bighorn sheep wandering near their public land grazing leases because they might eat some grass. Also, if the bighorns catch any diseases from domestic cattle, sheep or goats it's bad publicity for the welfare ranchers.
Maybe some of our SI anti crowd can explain why we shouldn't have more bighorns in the canyon.
--------------------
"Any hunter or angler who is not an environmentalist...is a damned fool." Conservation writer Ted Williams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 3857 | From: S.W. Idaho | Registered: Mar 2001
Paul C
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Member # 899
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posted 04-23-2003 09:08
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ithaca,
I think the Hells Canyon Initive is a great project. I particularly like FNAWS approach to dealing with domestic sheep allotments. FNAWS is aware of the value of grazing allotments to the livestock producers and works hard to buy out criticle wildlife habitat. Hells Canyon is a great example. And because it is done in a way to address everyone that is involved concerns, progress is actually taking place. Not just a bunch of arguing going on between the enviro's and the land rapers. Win win for everyone! Get it IT?
As for the auctions to raise funds for wildlife management, I am all for it, knowing that this system is not without it's flaws and human element. Case in point is the B. S. that happened in Idaho a few years back with its Governors tag. We as hunters cannot have situations like this too often if we hope to continue our sport.
Paul
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 173 | From: T Falls, MT | Registered: Feb 2002
Ten Bears
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Member # 885
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posted 04-23-2003 12:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I support auctioning the tag. Got enough cheese to go with that WHINE IT?
Tell me more about the govenors tag, I think I missed that one.
--------------------
Some people just don't listen to ya, but others just don't hear ya.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 747 | From: North Idaho | Registered: Feb 2002
Paul C
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Member # 899
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posted 04-23-2003 12:25
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ithaca,
You weren't one of those "bird hunters" out there the day before sheep season were you?
Paul
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 173 | From: T Falls, MT | Registered: Feb 2002
Ithaca 37
Member
Member # 366
posted 04-23-2003 13:22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul, They weren't bird hunters. Sounds like you don't know the facts. I know most of the guys on both sides that were involved.
--------------------
"Any hunter or angler who is not an environmentalist...is a damned fool." Conservation writer Ted Williams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 3857 | From: S.W. Idaho | Registered: Mar 2001
1_pointer
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Member # 70
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posted 04-23-2003 14:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK guys, I want a story or a link to the story. You have my curiosity piqued.
[ 04-23-2003 14:15: Message edited by: 1_pointer ]
--------------------
"We would demphasize our manipulation of wildlife for their purported good, and proceed headlong and without delay on what would really benefit them- manipulating ourselves. It is we who need birth control, not animals." -Ted Kerasote, pg. 218, Bloodties: Nature, Culture, and the Hunt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 2388 | From: Clinton, UT | Registered: Dec 2000
Ithaca 37
Member
Member # 366
posted 04-23-2003 22:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1, I think what Paul is referring to is an outfitter who got upset and made a big case out of an incident where some guys were scouting for sheep and spooked some rams that the outfitter thought he owned. He made a big deal outta it, mostly because he was so sure he was going to be able to get one of the rams for his client the next day that he didn't have a backup plan.
Most hunters who have some game scouted out before the season know it's just one of those things that happen sometimes (game getting bumped by another hunter), but when it happens to an outfitter some of them make a federal case out of it. It makes for a convenient scapegoat if they can't find something for their client to shoot.
Bird hunting was never a part of the incident and until Paul mentioned it I never heard it come up. The guys who spooked the rams aren't bird hunters. They didn't know the rams were around and they didn't see them. Nobody knows for sure why the rams weren't there the next day, but the outfitter had to have an excuse when he couldn't find some rams for his client, even though he had a month long season.
Paul, I started working on the Hell's Canyon project 21 years ago and had lots of first hand experience with the die offs caused by domestic stock and all the welfare ranch BS that went along with the buyouts. Did you know the Idaho Woolgrowers Assoc. threatened to get the Idaho auction tag canceled if FNAWS made an issue out of what was killing the bighorns?
[ 04-23-2003 23:02: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]
--------------------
"Any hunter or angler who is not an environmentalist...is a damned fool." Conservation writer Ted Williams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 3857 | From: S.W. Idaho | Registered: Mar 2001
Paul C
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Member # 899
Rate Member
posted 04-24-2003 08:57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ithaca,
I personally know one of the persons that was involved with this fiasco. The guy's that intentionally bumped the sheep claimed to be out bird hunting. You forgot to mention that this same group of bird hunters were going to be guiding the Governor's tag holder the next week and wanted to make sure he could get a crack at this big ram ( the hunter had prior business and could not make it until the second week of sheep season). They did do a good job of scaring the ram though. All the way into Oregon! Now evan their hunter could not hunt this sheep.
Say Ithica, I never have seen a picture of this hunter with the trophy he finally ended up taking. Whats up with that?
You wanted to know why some people don't support auction tags? Some times unethical bull shit happens when big money gets involved.
When it comes down to my friends word, or yours IT, guess who wins.
Paul
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 173 | From: T Falls, MT | Registered: Feb 2002
Ten Bears
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Member # 885
Rate Member
posted 04-24-2003 09:06
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PAUL,
I didn't know you put so much faith in IT, not.
Thanks for the story though, I remember one that was something along that line now.
Old minds are a terrible thing to try to use some mornings.
--------------------
Some people just don't listen to ya, but others just don't hear ya.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 747 | From: North Idaho | Registered: Feb 2002
Ithaca 37
Member
Member # 366
posted 04-24-2003 09:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul. I know both guys who did not intentionally bump any sheep. Bill and Terry aren't bird hunters---well maybe occaisionally they'd go pheasant hunting, but not where the sheep were. No sense me trying to explain all the rumors and BS about this to you here. You can email me if you want, but since I was drawn into the whole mess because I know most of the guys who were involved I have a pretty good handle on it. I can also put you in contact with the principals so you can get the story straight from them, if you're interested in the truth. You can talk it over with them at any FNAWS convention, too. You don't have the facts and there's no sense getting excited and involved unless you really want to get the whole story from everybody and then sort it all out yourself. Most of them will be at the next convention. Would you like to talk to the guys who are wrongly accused of intentionally bumping the sheep? If not, you'll never find out the truth.
[ 04-24-2003 09:16: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]
--------------------
"Any hunter or angler who is not an environmentalist...is a damned fool." Conservation writer Ted Williams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 3857 | From: S.W. Idaho | Registered: Mar 2001
Lostagain
Member
Member # 1098
Member Rated:
posted 04-24-2003 09:28
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul== Atch from Butte and Keiker from Melrose had basically the same report.
Whatever is the real truth...... sure makes for bad publicity for hunters and auctions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 578 | From: MT | Registered: Aug 2002
Ithaca 37
Member
Member # 366
posted 04-24-2003 09:35
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul and LA, If you want to find out the truth just contact me and I'll give you the name and phone number of the wrongly accused and you can hear their side of the story. Otherwise all you're getting is the outfitters side.
No sense continuing to spread rumors. Find out the truth and avoid losing credibility and making auction tags more controversial than they already are.
--------------------
"Any hunter or angler who is not an environmentalist...is a damned fool." Conservation writer Ted Williams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 3857 | From: S.W. Idaho | Registered: Mar 2001
Paul C
Member
Member # 899
Rate Member
posted 04-24-2003 09:41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It,
I know one of the principles, heard the evidence, and think I got the story straight.
If Bill and Terry are anything like you than, I wouldn't put past them. Cause justifies the means. Your run down of the events to pointer tips everyone of to your tainted view of what happened.
Paul
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 173 | From: T Falls, MT | Registered: Feb 2002
Lostagain
Member
Member # 1098
Member Rated:
posted 04-24-2003 09:50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IT=="making auction tags more controversial than they already are."
What? you said they WERE NOT controversial before, that they were great. Now you say you need to keep them from getting worse.....
Sounds like they have problems that you won't admit to.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 578 | From: MT | Registered: Aug 2002
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 04-24-2003 10:20: Message edited by: Paul C ]</font>
posted 04-23-2003 08:01
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's what the $ is used for:
"BOISE — An Idaho bighorn sheep tag went for $90,000 at auction this year, and most of that money will go to increasing the numbers of sheep in the Hells Canyon area, Fish and Game officials announced this week.
The hunting tag was auctioned at the Foundation for North American Wild Sheep´s annual meeting, and $85,000 of the proceeds will go to the Hells Canyon Initiative.
The project was launched in the mid-1990s by Idaho, Washington and Oregon, the Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management and the foundation. More than 800 bighorn sheep in 15 different herds are estimated to live in Hells Canyon.
The amount of money the tags draw varies from year to year, based on the hunting areas available."
You might be amazed to know that there are hunters who are actually opposed to selling a bighorn sheep tag at auction for projects like the Hell's Canyon Initiative. Ten years ago there were probably less than 100 sheep in the canyon. There could be as many as 5000 in a few years. Maybe more.
The main obstacle is welfare ranchers who don't want bighorn sheep wandering near their public land grazing leases because they might eat some grass. Also, if the bighorns catch any diseases from domestic cattle, sheep or goats it's bad publicity for the welfare ranchers.
Maybe some of our SI anti crowd can explain why we shouldn't have more bighorns in the canyon.
--------------------
"Any hunter or angler who is not an environmentalist...is a damned fool." Conservation writer Ted Williams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 3857 | From: S.W. Idaho | Registered: Mar 2001
Paul C
Member
Member # 899
Rate Member
posted 04-23-2003 09:08
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ithaca,
I think the Hells Canyon Initive is a great project. I particularly like FNAWS approach to dealing with domestic sheep allotments. FNAWS is aware of the value of grazing allotments to the livestock producers and works hard to buy out criticle wildlife habitat. Hells Canyon is a great example. And because it is done in a way to address everyone that is involved concerns, progress is actually taking place. Not just a bunch of arguing going on between the enviro's and the land rapers. Win win for everyone! Get it IT?
As for the auctions to raise funds for wildlife management, I am all for it, knowing that this system is not without it's flaws and human element. Case in point is the B. S. that happened in Idaho a few years back with its Governors tag. We as hunters cannot have situations like this too often if we hope to continue our sport.
Paul
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 173 | From: T Falls, MT | Registered: Feb 2002
Ten Bears
Member
Member # 885
Rate Member
posted 04-23-2003 12:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I support auctioning the tag. Got enough cheese to go with that WHINE IT?
Tell me more about the govenors tag, I think I missed that one.
--------------------
Some people just don't listen to ya, but others just don't hear ya.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 747 | From: North Idaho | Registered: Feb 2002
Paul C
Member
Member # 899
Rate Member
posted 04-23-2003 12:25
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ithaca,
You weren't one of those "bird hunters" out there the day before sheep season were you?
Paul
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 173 | From: T Falls, MT | Registered: Feb 2002
Ithaca 37
Member
Member # 366
posted 04-23-2003 13:22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul, They weren't bird hunters. Sounds like you don't know the facts. I know most of the guys on both sides that were involved.
--------------------
"Any hunter or angler who is not an environmentalist...is a damned fool." Conservation writer Ted Williams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 3857 | From: S.W. Idaho | Registered: Mar 2001
1_pointer
Member
Member # 70
Rate Member
posted 04-23-2003 14:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK guys, I want a story or a link to the story. You have my curiosity piqued.
[ 04-23-2003 14:15: Message edited by: 1_pointer ]
--------------------
"We would demphasize our manipulation of wildlife for their purported good, and proceed headlong and without delay on what would really benefit them- manipulating ourselves. It is we who need birth control, not animals." -Ted Kerasote, pg. 218, Bloodties: Nature, Culture, and the Hunt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 2388 | From: Clinton, UT | Registered: Dec 2000
Ithaca 37
Member
Member # 366
posted 04-23-2003 22:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1, I think what Paul is referring to is an outfitter who got upset and made a big case out of an incident where some guys were scouting for sheep and spooked some rams that the outfitter thought he owned. He made a big deal outta it, mostly because he was so sure he was going to be able to get one of the rams for his client the next day that he didn't have a backup plan.
Most hunters who have some game scouted out before the season know it's just one of those things that happen sometimes (game getting bumped by another hunter), but when it happens to an outfitter some of them make a federal case out of it. It makes for a convenient scapegoat if they can't find something for their client to shoot.
Bird hunting was never a part of the incident and until Paul mentioned it I never heard it come up. The guys who spooked the rams aren't bird hunters. They didn't know the rams were around and they didn't see them. Nobody knows for sure why the rams weren't there the next day, but the outfitter had to have an excuse when he couldn't find some rams for his client, even though he had a month long season.
Paul, I started working on the Hell's Canyon project 21 years ago and had lots of first hand experience with the die offs caused by domestic stock and all the welfare ranch BS that went along with the buyouts. Did you know the Idaho Woolgrowers Assoc. threatened to get the Idaho auction tag canceled if FNAWS made an issue out of what was killing the bighorns?
[ 04-23-2003 23:02: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]
--------------------
"Any hunter or angler who is not an environmentalist...is a damned fool." Conservation writer Ted Williams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 3857 | From: S.W. Idaho | Registered: Mar 2001
Paul C
Member
Member # 899
Rate Member
posted 04-24-2003 08:57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ithaca,
I personally know one of the persons that was involved with this fiasco. The guy's that intentionally bumped the sheep claimed to be out bird hunting. You forgot to mention that this same group of bird hunters were going to be guiding the Governor's tag holder the next week and wanted to make sure he could get a crack at this big ram ( the hunter had prior business and could not make it until the second week of sheep season). They did do a good job of scaring the ram though. All the way into Oregon! Now evan their hunter could not hunt this sheep.
Say Ithica, I never have seen a picture of this hunter with the trophy he finally ended up taking. Whats up with that?
You wanted to know why some people don't support auction tags? Some times unethical bull shit happens when big money gets involved.
When it comes down to my friends word, or yours IT, guess who wins.
Paul
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 173 | From: T Falls, MT | Registered: Feb 2002
Ten Bears
Member
Member # 885
Rate Member
posted 04-24-2003 09:06
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PAUL,
I didn't know you put so much faith in IT, not.
Thanks for the story though, I remember one that was something along that line now.
Old minds are a terrible thing to try to use some mornings.
--------------------
Some people just don't listen to ya, but others just don't hear ya.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 747 | From: North Idaho | Registered: Feb 2002
Ithaca 37
Member
Member # 366
posted 04-24-2003 09:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul. I know both guys who did not intentionally bump any sheep. Bill and Terry aren't bird hunters---well maybe occaisionally they'd go pheasant hunting, but not where the sheep were. No sense me trying to explain all the rumors and BS about this to you here. You can email me if you want, but since I was drawn into the whole mess because I know most of the guys who were involved I have a pretty good handle on it. I can also put you in contact with the principals so you can get the story straight from them, if you're interested in the truth. You can talk it over with them at any FNAWS convention, too. You don't have the facts and there's no sense getting excited and involved unless you really want to get the whole story from everybody and then sort it all out yourself. Most of them will be at the next convention. Would you like to talk to the guys who are wrongly accused of intentionally bumping the sheep? If not, you'll never find out the truth.
[ 04-24-2003 09:16: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]
--------------------
"Any hunter or angler who is not an environmentalist...is a damned fool." Conservation writer Ted Williams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 3857 | From: S.W. Idaho | Registered: Mar 2001
Lostagain
Member
Member # 1098
Member Rated:
posted 04-24-2003 09:28
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul== Atch from Butte and Keiker from Melrose had basically the same report.
Whatever is the real truth...... sure makes for bad publicity for hunters and auctions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 578 | From: MT | Registered: Aug 2002
Ithaca 37
Member
Member # 366
posted 04-24-2003 09:35
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul and LA, If you want to find out the truth just contact me and I'll give you the name and phone number of the wrongly accused and you can hear their side of the story. Otherwise all you're getting is the outfitters side.
No sense continuing to spread rumors. Find out the truth and avoid losing credibility and making auction tags more controversial than they already are.
--------------------
"Any hunter or angler who is not an environmentalist...is a damned fool." Conservation writer Ted Williams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 3857 | From: S.W. Idaho | Registered: Mar 2001
Paul C
Member
Member # 899
Rate Member
posted 04-24-2003 09:41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It,
I know one of the principles, heard the evidence, and think I got the story straight.
If Bill and Terry are anything like you than, I wouldn't put past them. Cause justifies the means. Your run down of the events to pointer tips everyone of to your tainted view of what happened.
Paul
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 173 | From: T Falls, MT | Registered: Feb 2002
Lostagain
Member
Member # 1098
Member Rated:
posted 04-24-2003 09:50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IT=="making auction tags more controversial than they already are."
What? you said they WERE NOT controversial before, that they were great. Now you say you need to keep them from getting worse.....
Sounds like they have problems that you won't admit to.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 578 | From: MT | Registered: Aug 2002
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 04-24-2003 10:20: Message edited by: Paul C ]</font>
