Anti Gun Control

[jig maker]

To: Subject: Gun Control Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:26:42 -0700 GUN
>CONTROL Whether you agree or not, it's an interesting lesson in history.
>Something to think about...
>
>
>
>In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about
>20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
>exterminated. -------------------------------------------------------- In
>1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million
>Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
>-------------------------------------------------------- Germany
>established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and
>others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and
>exterminated. --------------------------------------------------------
>China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million
>political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
>exterminated. --------------------------------------------------------
>Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan
>Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
> -------------------------------------------------------- Uganda
>established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians,
>unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
>-------------------------------------------------------- Cambodia
>established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated'
>people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
>-------------------------------------------------------- Defenseless people
>rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56
>million. It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were
>forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by
>their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500
>million dollars. The first year results are now in: Australia-wide,
>homicides are up 3.2 percent Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent
>Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)! In
> the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300
>percent. (Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the
>criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!) While figures
>over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with
>firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since
>criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed. There has also
>been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY.
>Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has
>decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in
>successfully ridding Australian society of guns." The Australian experience
>and the other historical facts above prove it. You won't see this data on
>the American evening news or hear our president, governors or other
>politicians disseminating this information. Guns in the hands of honest
>citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect
> only the law-abiding citizens. Take note my fellow Americans.....before
>it's too late! The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please
>remind them of this history lesson. With guns, we are citizens. Without
>them, we are subjects. If you value your freedom, Please spread this
>anti-gun control message to all of your friends.

 

[Ten Bears]

Did you leave anybody out? I thought there were more examples....

 

[JoseCuervo]

That one reads like it may need a "Snopes.com" on it, as a few numbers seem a bit made up. Jigmaker, where did you find this writing? Any back up information?

The reason I ask, is the Holocaust is generally referred to as "6 million Jews" and those numbers come from many countries. The writing you cite is for 13 million Jews in Germany. There are some upper end estimates that have upwards of 12 million people killed, but many were not Jews, but were just not "Aryan" enough. And most of all, they were not in Germany, as cited in your writing.

One of the areas that always was open for debate was the numbers of Soviet Jews killed. Some believed the number to be inflated for political purposes.

In any event, it was a horrible killing, but I am not sure that Gun Control was the cause... Also, your numbers in Austrailia look a bit suspect.

Here is one table, that shows the number of Jews killed in Germany to be a relatively low number compared to the Jews that Hitler killed in Poland. Do you know if Poland had Gun Control?

Albania:----- 200
Germany:----- 160,000
Belgium:----- 28,518
Bessarabie:----- 200,000
Bucovine: -----124,632
Crete:----- 260
Denmark:----- 77
Estonia:----- 1,000
Finland:----- 11
France: -----83,000
Greece: -----65,000
Holland: -----106,000
Hungary: -----200,000
Italy: -----8,000
Kos: -----120
Lettonia: -----80,000
Libya:----- 562
Lituania: -----135,000
Luxemburg: -----700
Macedonia: -----7,122
Memel:----- 8,000
Norway:----- 728
Poland: -----3,000,000
Rhodes:----- 1,700
Roumania: -----40,000
Rhutenia: -----60,000
Czechoslovakia: -----217,000
Thrace: -----4,221
Transylvania: -----105,000
Soviet Union -----1,000,000
Yougoslavia: -----60,000
TOTAL: -----5,693,851

 

[JoseCuervo]

Just found the Snopes.com analysis on the Austrailian part of the above writing... Points out errors and mis-interpertations. Interesting reading, and further discredits the original posting...

http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

Is it the NRA that publishes this mis-information to begin with?

 

[MarlandS]

Gunner reread that it did not say "in Germany" it said Germany killed and the phrase "and others". Besides ,there are people who claim the holocaust never happened, add to that the fact that conclusive numbers aren't known due to the destruction of records and non-reporting.

The JFPO saw fit to publish the 13 million number

And the Snopes article doesn't dispute the numbers as much as it asks for clarification. That said, the Aussie bit adds very little to the numbers from the first part of the email floating around.

This has been around since 2000 ,if not before, why not submit it to Snopes for a checkout? More readable copies are available here: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Soviet+Union+established+gun+control%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&start=0&sa=N

 

[JoseCuervo]

MarS,
I certainly hope you are not one of those who denys the Holocaust.

But the original writing makes no sense, if you read it as you say. If the gun control happened in Germany, but 12.8 million people were killed in countries outside of Germany, then what is the point? How did German gun control inside of Germany contribute to 3 million Jews being killed in Poland?

And as I read the snopes article, it does dispute some of the numbers, example: crimes with guns.

You have to admidt, this original piece is a bit loose with the facts, and the cause and correlation conclusions.

 

[pawclaws]

Here you go.

Paul Harvey on Guns
Are you considering backing gun control laws? Do you think
that because you may not own a gun, the rights guaranteed by
the Second Amendment don't matter? CONSIDER;
> > > > >
In 1929 the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929
to 1953, approximately 20 million dissidents, unable to
defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
> > > > >
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915-1917, 1.5
million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded
up and exterminated.
> > > > >
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to
1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally
ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were
rounded up and exterminated.
> > > > >
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20
million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.
> > > > >
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to
1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.
> > > > >
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979,
300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded
up and exterminated.
> > > > >
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977,
one million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.
> > > > >
That places total victims who lost their lives because of gun
control at approximately 56 million in the last century.
Since we should learn from the mistakes of history, the
next time someone talks in favor of gun control, find out
which group of citizens they wish to have exterminated.
> > > > >
It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were
forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be
destroyed, a program costing the government more than $500
million dollars. The results Australia-wide; Homicides are
up 3.2% Assaults are up 8 % Armed robberies are up 44% In
that countries' state of Victoria, homicides with firearms
are up 300%. Over the previous 25 years, figures show a
steady increase in armed robberies and Australian politicians
are on the spot and at a loss to explain how no improvement
in "safety" has been observed after such monumental effort
and expense was successfully expended in "ridding society of
guns." It's time to state it plainly; Guns in the hands of
honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control
laws only affect the law-abiding citizens. Take action
before it's too late, write or call your delegation.
> > > > > OPINION: Paul Harvey on Guns
> > > > >
Paul Harvey's comment on Columbine High shootings: How can we
blame it all on guns?
> > > > >
For the life of me, I can't understand what could have gone
wrong in Littleton, CO. If only the parents had kept their
children away from the guns, we wouldn't have had such a tragedy.
> > > > >
Yeah, it must have been the guns. It couldn't have been
because half our children are being raised in broken homes.
It couldn't have been because our children get to spend an
average of 30 seconds in meaningful conversation with their
parents each day. After all, we give our children quality
time. It couldn't have been because we treat our children as
pets and our pets as children.
> > > > >
It couldn't have been because we place our children in day
care centers where they learn their socialization skills
among their peers under the law of the jungle while employees
who have no vested interest in the children look on and make
sure that no blood is spilled.
> > > > >
It couldn't have been because we allow our children to watch,
on the average, seven hours of television a day filled with
the glorification of sex and violence that isn't fit for
adult consumption.
> > > > >
It couldn't have been because we allow our children to enter
into virtual worlds in which, to win the game, one must kill
as many opponents as possible in the most sadistic way
possible.
> > > > >
It couldn't have been because we have sterilized and
contracepted our families down to sizes so small that the
children we do have are so spoiled with material things that
they come to equate the receiving of the material with love.
> > > > >
It couldn't have been because our children, who historically
have been seen as a blessing from God, are now being viewed
as either a mistake created when contraception fails or
inconveniences that parents try to raise in their spare time.
> > > > >
It couldn't have been because we give two-year prison
sentences to teenagers who kill their newborns. It couldn't
have been because our school systems teach the children that
they are nothing but glorified apes who have evolutionized
out of some primordial soup of mud by teaching evolution as
fact and by handing out condoms as if they were candy.
> > > > >
It couldn't have been because we teach our children that
there are no laws of morality that transcend us, that
everything is relative and that actions don't have
consequences. What the heck, the president gets away with it.
> > > > > Nah, it must have been the guns.
> > > > >
Paul Harvey

Sound or look familiar??

Guess I'm going to have to teach you boys how to do research!

...and that's the rest of the story. He's Paul Harvey; Good day!

 

[JoseCuervo]

Paul Harvey is a great entertainer, and I would love to have his job. He has never been accused of being accurate, but always entertaining.

 

[danr55]

Pawclaws, I would hardly call Paul Harvey "conclusive research". On the other hand, I did a thesis for my masters degree on the relationship between factual reporting in the media and public safety. During the research for that paper, I did a lot of looking for numbers as relates to Australia. I found that the numbers of armed robberies and homocides had, in fact, skyrocketed since the gun ban downunder. The scariest statistic was the number of home invasions that took place in the three years following the ban. The number went from virtually 0, to well over 400 a year. Don't recall the exact numbers. Essentially, all crime statistics, for crimes against persons, went well above previous numbers....Then what can you expect from a country full of convicts..

As relates to the holocaust, what difference does it make whether it was 9 million, 11 million, or 15 million? It happened and a lot of innocent people died. Picking flyshit from pepper is not a logical argument. The point of contention seems to be whether or not gun control was a contributing factor. Anytime you remove the abliltiy to protect themselves from an entire race of people, they become subjegated to the will of those who have removed thier protection. Such was the case in Germany. Over time, the Nazis removed that ability from all they deemed to be inferior, i.e.jews, gypsys, indigents, etc., and they subjegated these peoples to second class status. That's a power trip. Did gun control contribute to that power? My personal belief is no it did not. What happened to the Jews and others in Europe would have happened anyway. There were powers at work that far exceeded any individual ability to defend oneself from the brownshirted pigs. The fact remains.. guns were removed from public possession by all but the acceptable, and the rest were subjected to horrors that we cannot begin to imagine. That is the point and it is undeniable by any who retain the ability to think for themselves.

 

[pawclaws]

Danr55; I didn't call Paul Harvey's article conclusive research. It is merely a mirror image of the original article. It is shown only for comparison; not confirmation, support of accuracy, or any other purpose. My intention is to demonstrate that it is probably the source of the information originally presented since there seem to be quite a number of similarities. The relationship between factual reporting and public safety? What was your theory and summary of conclusions??

 

[Canoe]

Paul Harvey is a flake. I have listened to him speak on both sides of the gun issue over the years.

 

[pawclaws]

Uhhhhh Canoe; if Paul Harvey is a flake, why do you listen to him??? Just curious!

 

[Canoe]

I don't anymore. But thanks for asking.

I won't keep you here long, cause I know that your busy revamping the education system and all....

 

[1_pointer]

Just a question, given the first two examples, what is me having a bolt action rifle or pump action shotgun going to do if the US military decides to come after me and those like me? I can see/agree with the argument for having arms for home and personal protection, but not against military forces. I saw some large 'shroom clouds today on the bombing range and just got me to thinking.

 

[MarlandS]

Pointer if you have one of those you can get a better weapon. If you stay to the cities you force them to a ground war, no way would they even do a sugical strike in a city. Too many civilian casualties would lose the war for them. That's what the Pro-gunners need to work on more, public opinion. That's how the AWB became to be, the uninformed populace didn't know the difference between a machine gun and a semi auto. Look at how many use the term AK-47 today.

Gunner, nope , I'm not one of those who deny the holocaust, you wanted to parse nubers, I gave you another option to consider. It doesn't matter if it was 100 people killed as a direct result of gun control. But hey, what is it the Liberals say? "if it only saves one life?"

Now you've turned the Germany thing again,quit over thinking it. Germany, meaning the gov't of, killed unarmed non-combatants in how many countries? Is not a country conquered by another a part of (a possession) that country until liberation?

 

[danr55]

Paw, My Null statement was that by showing biased in reporting on matters involving firearms, the media is actually degrading public safety rather than improving it.

The conclusions were:
1. The media, press, TV, major wire services, are by their own admission, biased in favor of gun control and the repeal of the Second Amendment.
2. There is no measurable evidence to support the theory the more guns on the street equals more gun violence. This is supported by the fact that the number of firearms that are privately held has increased some 400% since 1965, yet the violent crime rate has shown a steady decline since 1991 and the numbers of crimes involving firearms has steadily decreased since 1985.
3. Organizations such as Handgun Control Inc., currently known as The Brady Committee to End Handgun Violence, has been unsuccessful with the previous campaign of slander, false advertising, and dishonesty, so they have completely revamped their activity (which they did right in the middle of my research..) and have taken a softer line. In taking that softer line, they have again run up against the facts and are once again trying to distort the facts to read in thier favor.

In doing research for my paper, I used several on line sources for data including the FBI, Bureau of Criminal Statistics (for the US, UK, Canada, and Australia.) All of these Bureaus are government sponsored but are not funded directly and as such are not answerable to the governments of the respective countries they serve. So I had very little fear that the statistics would be biased.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hey DanR,

You still have access to the statistics? In Bowling for Columbine, Michael Moorer keeps hammering that the gun death rate in the US is way higher than in Canada, Germany, Austrailia or Japan. I am sure it was a "per capita" statement.

Does that square with your memory of the rates?

 

[dgibson]

Paul Harvey is a great entertainer, and I would love to have his job. He has never been accused of being accurate, but always entertaining.

Michael Moore is a great entertainer, and I would love to have his job. He has never been accused of being accurate, but always entertaining.