Adding Solar panels and Backup batteries to my home

[2rocky]

Here in the land of Wildfires and power shutdowns, there is a program to underwrite the cost of Solar panels and batteries. Has anyone done something of the sort and what have your experiences been?

I'd like to be totally self sufficient for my electric energy needs, but i don't want to pay for it out of pocket.

A lot of these solar companies promise no out of pocket expense, and a big tax rebate. Have those of you with solar on your homes seen that?

 

[406LIFE]

At one time I was a project manager for a fairly large solar company. If I was to build a house knew I would absolutely do solar. It makes sense if you are going to stay in your house long-term to underwrite the cost of the equipment. You also need to see what your net meter regs are in your state.

 

[hank4elk]

It makes sense in some states. I switched to solar for my stock well.
I will do it for my home if I get ahead a bit. I have the power poles etc. paid off with local power,and the regs are changing here in NM when your hooked to both. It's the night & power outages here that make a duel system seem OK. I have not seen any reasonably priced battery back up systems yet. More folks around me are getting some sort of solar or looking.
The panels are way more efficient than just a couple years ago. I do not use near the power I used to either.

 

[Nambaster]

In Idaho I sell and install solar. The net metering program in Idaho makes it a no brainer. Its a very logical transition. I was paying $90/month to Idaho Power and now I pay $60/ to a solar finance company. As far as batteries go I still haven’t gotten any of those. I am currently grid tied. Our company projects that the cost of batteries will be a fraction of what they cost now in a few years. The current rebate on solar is 26% but you do have to have a tax liability as it is a tax credit.

When the companies talk about no out of pocket expenses they mean no money down.

 

[2rocky]

Nambaster, not knowing the trajectory of improvement should I be worried about being stuck with an obsolete system or is there upgrade options as inverters get better and panels get more efficient?

What questions should I ask the Solar company to be sure they are reputable reliable and high quality?

 

[hank4elk]

I installed a full lock out panel when I had power brought in for the generator or solar option too. $5k-8k for propane generator option,makes $12-15k for solar option doable.

 

[MarvB]

Nambaster, not knowing the trajectory of improvement should I be worried about being stuck with an obsolete system or is there upgrade options as inverters get better and panels get more efficient?

What questions should I ask the Solar company to be sure they are reputable reliable and high quality?

Check their licensing, check any consumer rating agencies they may be part of, BBB complaints, all the usual. Be sure to get current references and talk to them (not just read the words on a brochure). Do ask about the expandability and upgrading opportunities. In my area people went small initially preferring to pair their system with cheaper NG appliances in their homes. Then as elect appliance became more efficient and often cheaper to run, their systems were too small for total conversion later. Their are other issues you can run into in time with upgrades and roof mounted systems. For example in 2013, standard IEC 61730-2A came in requiring all panels to comply with a fire rating. Many older panels won’t meet this rating and are extremely costly to test. People who wanted to re-roof their homes at a later date found that they couldn't remove and reinstall their systems (even if they were perfectly fine) as they no longer met code and taking them off to re-roof voided the grandfathering. Solar can make sense given how affordable its become but again just ask a lot of questions; payback is still running 6-8 years in our area so its not for those with happy feet.

 

[2rocky]

Hank you should see the old Le Roi Gas engine Generator we have leftover from running the Milk barn when Winter storms would knock the power out.

 

[MarvB]

I was digging around trying to find the question list I used to send some of our customers when they were inquiring about solar (I was the Operations Manager for an electric utility until this past December); here are some to read through:

“What system size should I choose for the most savings?”
Note that sizing a solar system is much more complex than simply taking a look at your electric bills and picking one that will produce enough electricity to match your usage.
The solar company rep first needs to collect the following information:
• Your home energy usage patterns;
• The orientation and angle of your roof;
• The surplus amount of energy you’ll export to the grid; and
• Which utility you use, how much they charge for electricity, and their net metering rate.
Make sure they know how your current utility provider handles storage- I always suggest you go and meet with the local utilities planners to get the REAL story and the story from someone on commission.

“Are you licensed as a solar panel installer, and how much industry experience do you have?”
It’s critical that the solar installation company you hire has received a license from the county/city and state in which they are working. The contractor should be insured and bonded, as well.
Also, it’s a good idea to ask who will actually be working on your home. Will it be a contractor with the solar company, or do they subcontract the work? If a subcontractor will be handling your job, you'll need to do the extra legwork to make sure that they're licensed, insured, and experienced, too.

"Will you take a detailed look at my roof?"
Not only will the solar contractor have to make a recommendation for your system size, they will also need to physically inspect your roof. After all, it needs to be suited to have solar panels safely installed.
Depending on your roof’s overall condition and age, you might have to replace it prior to installing your solar system.
It is also important to keep in mind that when the contractor installs racks on your roof (to support the panels), they will be drilling holes. Make sure you ask what type of materials and equipment will be used to ensure you won’t have a leaky roof when it rains.

“What if my solar system doesn't generate as much energy as anticipated?”
If the contractor promises that your system will produce a specific amount of energy each year, be sure to ask what will happen if the system or panel efficiency doesn't meet your expectations.
There are several possible scenarios. For instance, maybe the company will add extra panels, free of charge. Or perhaps they'll reimburse you for your system's underperformance.
Find out upfront what you can expect in this situation.

“What if my situation changes over the next few years?”
Life happens, and as a result, your solar needs may change over time.
For example, your family might end up expanding, or you may add additional rooms to your home. In these instances, what will happen if your installed system design ends up not being big enough?
The best thing you can do to prevent this from happening is to purchase a solar system that is large enough to cover potential future usage.

“What will happen if I decide to relocate while leasing a solar system?”
Not to worry. As a general rule, you can transfer your lease to a new homeowner after they've been approved for the home (based on a credit check). In the event that they don't qualify, the leasing company has the power to remove the system, and you will no longer be bound to the contract.
Despite this, it could be helpful to ask if any fee is associated with transferring a lease or removing a system.

“How are solar warranties handled?”
Solar systems come with both warranties and production quality guarantees. Note that these are not the same as the workmanship warranty that a contractor offers. Therefore, it's a good idea to ask about both of these types of warranties, as well as what each covers.
In addition, be wary of solar installers who require you to hire them to service your system regularly — for example, every couple of years — to keep your installation warranty from becoming void.
The reality is that you generally only need to service your system every five years in order to maximize its performance. You should also plan to clean it just once a year. In order to save time and money, stick with solar companies that don't compel you to get your solar system serviced more often than you need to.

 

[Nambaster]

Nambaster, not knowing the trajectory of improvement should I be worried about being stuck with an obsolete system or is there upgrade options as inverters get better and panels get more efficient?

What questions should I ask the Solar company to be sure they are reputable reliable and high quality?

MarvB‘s questions are spot on.

I would make sure that you have in writing that all labor and service calls are warranted by the installation company. If that is not the case if you end up with any components that go out (even if under manufacturer warranty) you don’t want to end up having to pay for a service call for a bad microinverter. Also make sure that they are not using emphase components as we have discovered that those things are garbage. I would also ask if the company is willing to compensate you for loss of time of use if anything goes out.

A lot of solar companies will install from out of town and disappear. You want someone local that is always going to answer your phone call if somehow something goes out. Our company offers a 25 year full warranty on everything so your solar bill is your absolute worse case scenario and it is better than your best case scenario of being with Idaho Power. I am not sure how things are in Montana.

 

[grizzly_]

I'm getting ready to build a long-term home and am considering solar panels. The home will be on land power but have propane; I was going to install a backup generator while I was at it.

After talking to a local solar company he's recommending the following...

10 kWh panels

Three 5 kWh batteries

Backup 22 kWh generator

He says the system will be set up to run the house while they sun is shining, the excess power will go to the batteries first and then when they're topped off the remaining will be net-metered back into the grid. (Our utility company pays much less for net-metered than they charge for usage, so you want that to be the last leg of the system).

In evenings the system will draw the batteries to a pre-determined percentage (~50% for longest battery life) before kicking back over to land power.

In an outage, the batteries will draw to 20% before kicking on the generator. The generator will power the house while charging the batteries. Once they're charged, the generator will kick off and the system will kick back to batteries and repeat.

He told my this system would run about $35k.

He estimates I'd save about $150/month, which makes this a poor financial decision, IMO, but I'm tempted to do it for the peace of mind and the ability to charge an electric truck if I were to ever get one. I like the idea of driving on solar miles.

I'm not at all an expert on this and would love input. Thoughts?

 

[Dave N]

Over 20 years to break even? Maybe? Ouch. I like a generator for a back-up power supply but not having to depend on one to charge batteries when you have power readily available. Batteries wear out, cost to run generator, etc.

 

[Wallydeuce]

Couple of questions:
Where do you live and how much do you pay per kwh? How reliable is your electric company? Lots of power outages?
How big is your house and what kind of appliances do you use and are they new or older models? Specifically, do you run a business at home using numerous 230v machines? Water pumps, welders or large compressors? Will the panels be roof mounted? Facing which direction? How many days a year with less than 3% cloud cover? 8%? (Weather service has these answers)

I'm not trying to dissuade you and you don't need to respond. Just asking questions I hope you've already asked. In locations where electricity is super expensive or unreliable, grid tie in systems are a great insurance. But usually sold at twice the size needed for the average residential property.

I'm not anti solar Grizzly, far from it. Hell, I a 2,100 sq.ft. cabin powered by solar with a generator back up. Panel, battery inverter and generator maintenance gets old though.
My .02

 

[grizzly_]

Couple of questions:
Where do you live and how much do you pay per kwh? How reliable is your electric company? Lots of power outages?
How big is your house and what kind of appliances do you use and are they new or older models? Specifically, do you run a business at home using numerous 230v machines? Water pumps, welders or large compressors? Will the panels be roof mounted? Facing which direction? How many days a year with less than 3% cloud cover? 8%? (Weather service has these answers)

I'm not trying to dissuade you and you don't need to respond. Just asking questions I hope you've already asked. In locations where electricity is super expensive or unreliable, grid tie in systems are a great insurance. But usually sold at twice the size needed for the average residential property.

I'm not anti solar Grizzly, far from it. Hell, I a 2,100 sq.ft. cabin powered by solar with a generator back up. Panel, battery inverter and generator maintenance gets old though.
My .02

Good questions. Thank you.

The house isn't built yet, but it's a nice size home (> 3,000sqft but < 5,000sqft) with some upgrades like in-floor heat and a big garage and trophy room. It's bigger than a small home and smaller than a big home.

The only weather stat I could find is that we average 219 days of sun per year. We're pretty much full sun from May to October, but winters are definitely worse weather.

My first take was that it would take 19 years for the system to pay for itself (exclusive of tax credits, etc...), and that is if there's no maintenance and everything lasts that long... which is admittedly unlikely. With tax credits the numbers are better, but not great.

Our utility companies are fairly dependable, but we do lose power for a half day or so a few times per year.

I'll definitely put in a backup generator, it's worth the $5k(ish) to me, and a wood burning stove. The impetus behind the solar panels would be more philosophical inasmuch as I'd like to support the growth of electrical technology and I like the idea of having zero tailpipe emissions that would be offset by my own personal solar generation. Having an electric vehicle that is powered by a coal plant a few hundred miles away doesn't make much sense to me... it's basically just a coal car with a long tailpipe.

There's no question in my mind that financially the numbers don't run and that I'd be FAR financially ahead to take the $30k and invest it for the next 19 years than hope to recover the money via utility bill savings.

I guess my question was more about the recommended system and whether it was adequate or overbuilt. Also, I wondered about experiences that people have had with their solar panels. You brought up a fantastic point about maintenance. I'm definitely not looking for more stuff to take care of as I'm designing this house to be low maintenance so I have more time to do what I want and less time mowing the lawn and staining the deck.

I appreciate the thoughtful discussion. Thank you.

 

[Mallardsx2]

I'll keep a 9500 watt generator at the ready and skip the drilling 400 holes in my new roof.

But thats just me.

 

[BigHornRam]

Sounds like a fair sized system and priced appropriately for the size. Charging a car uses a lot of juice however. Same with Air Conditioning. Good house insulation in the construction phase goes a long ways to save energy over the life of the house. Batteries are expensive if they are good quality and long lasting. Sounds like they are using lithium batteries which is good. Big issue with most of this equiptment is where it is manufactured....... China. Utah has a lot of sun and is probably one of the best locations in the country for solar. Do your homework and it sounds like you are already starting to do that. Good luck!

 

[WinkB]

We have a place that is several miles away from any commercial power source and our only option is solar or generator. I have installed both to work jointly if needed.

From the generator standpoint I have a 11KW LP. At low loads it consumes about 1 gallon of LP an hour of operation. Today's current cost for LP is almost $2 a gallon. If I have to run the generator for 24 hours, that is almost $50 a day, so it adds up quickly. Most residential gen sets have a typical operational design life around 3,000 hours. Just something to consider when you are factoring in all the maintenance and replacement costs. Earlier this year I was looking at ordering a replacement generator in the event mine fails. The local distributors within 200 miles were projecting a 20-30 week lead time on a complete replacement unit.

If you are in a Norther climate, the total number of usable sunlight, is a factor in system design and recharge rates for your battery plant. Many folks will design a system to have no sunlight for 3+ days and still maintain normal operation. Additionally you will need to consider recharge rate. How quickly you can get your battery plant back up to say 90% recharged. That will aid in sizing the array. You many want to consider an array that can be adjustable based on time of year and position of the sun with respect to the horizon.

Battery maintenance is also another factor to consider and placement. Ideally the batteries perform better around 70 degrees. If you have them in an exterior structure that is -20 in the winter the battery performance will not be equal to that during summer months. Additionally batteries are currently a little higher than they have been and inventories are down. I have an additional battery string on order since June that has not arrived. I can find the batteries elsewhere in stock however they are several hundred more per battery than when I ordered it.

All these problem are easy to solve. It just take a little time to sit down, determine your loads, how you will use the system and what your expectations are. Once you determine that you can determine if there if value for you to do it.

 

[homers]

Go with panels and skip the batteries and generator. ROI will be much quicker.

 

[CoffeeGoat]

Go with panels and skip the batteries and generator. ROI will be much quicker.

I think this is the right answer. The batteries are by far the most expensive and least economic piece of the equation. They're also the piece that will wear out first and have the worst environmental impact from cradle to grave. A manual transfer switch and a natural gas genset is a much easier way to cover for outages when you absolutely need power. As long as net metering laws are in place in your state you can target your yearly production to be up to 120 percent of your usage averaged over the year.

 

[2rocky]

Just so you all know I just signed a contract to install solar panels. Marv B's Questions were all answered up front and I got great financing on the system. This last month rate hikes made the battery option feasible economically.