Accuracy and mixed fired brass

[nhenry]

How does everyone feel about mixing different times fired brass for loads? Does it affect POI, accuracy, anything?

 

[OntarioHunter]

I use the same manufacturer for each lot. After sizing and trimming, I weigh each empty case and separate into categories of approximately two to three grains difference. Hopefully I can find twenty that are that close in weight and use those for loading. The assumption is the inside volume of the cases will be uniform. I have found that empty cases from different boxes made by the same manufacturer can be significantly different in weight. Presumably this is due to different alloys of brass.

 

[MThuntr]

How does everyone feel about mixing different times fired brass for loads? Does it affect POI, accuracy, anything?

I've noticed that when mixing headstamps that my velocities were all over the place which can be hard to notice at 100 yards but at 200 you notice and beyond that it's very evident. The inconsistencies in case volume and/or brass hardness can also effect pressure as you work up loads. 1 brand of brass may show signs at high charge weight but a piece from a different expresses signs of pressure at a lower charge weight...then you end up with a seized up bolt or worse.

I don't mix headstamps, rarely mix lots of brass (only small stuff like 204 and 233), and never mix lots on anything I'm serious about shooting. When reloading you're trying to control all variables and that's an easy one to control.

 

[nhenry]

I've noticed that when mixing headstamps that my velocities were all over the place which can be hard to notice at 100 yards but at 200 you notice and beyond that it's very evident. The inconsistencies in case volume and/or brass hardness can also effect pressure as you work up loads. 1 brand of brass may show signs at high charge weight but a piece from a different expresses signs of pressure at a lower charge weight...then you end up with a seized up bolt or worse.

I don't mix headstamps, rarely mix lots of brass (only small stuff like 204 and 233), and never mix lots on anything I'm serious about shooting. When reloading you're trying to control all variables and that's an easy one to control.

I never mix headstamp. I don’t even mix lots. What I’m wondering is if people mix their twice fired with fifth and third etc. and if they notice significant difference in POI and suffered accuracy by doing so

 

[MThuntr]

I never mix headstamp. I don’t even mix lots. What I’m wondering is if people mix their twice fired with fifth and third etc. and if they notice significant difference in POI and suffered accuracy by doing so

Oops I misread it. I don't know if you'll notice early on (2 and 3 firings) but you'll likely notice things beyond that as the brass work hardens, primer pockets potentially change, etc. I'd assume annealing will help relieve most issues.

I think it's a rare occurrence to have such a vast different number of firings in a single lot. If you have the same lot but different firing amounts then it think it's best to revamp your process

 

[Mallardsx2]

I mix everything. Doesn't make a difference for my needs. I have brass that has been fired 4 times mixed in with once fired brass ect ect.
I certainly don't sort by brand or weight of case either. I do however of course re-size and trim everything to the exact same dimensions. I don't even sort out my nickel cases. I throw them right in with the brass cases. The difference in POI is so negligible that it just doesn't matter enough for me.

Disclaimer: I reload to save money and I am no ribbon chaser. I shoot deer out to 200 yards.

 

[bwanakubwa]

There's no way having 2 vs 4th fired brass could have a significant impact on accuracy. I swear some people reload to give their OCD personalities a socially acceptable outlet

 

[Mallardsx2]

^^^ So true.

 

[OntarioHunter]

I never mix headstamp. I don’t even mix lots. What I’m wondering is if people mix their twice fired with fifth and third etc. and if they notice significant difference in POI and suffered accuracy by doing so

I don't shoot a ton at the range (who can with the current shortage in components), but I have a good electronic scale so why not weigh and categorize? I do see some differences in weight after firing the same lot multiple times. The excess weight lost had to go somewhere, presumably in the trimming. A difference of four grains from the rest of the lot suddenly appearing tells me that case now has gotten thinner somewhere. How much difference will it make in the accuracy? For my 30-06 at 200 yards it may be negligible. But for those who want to push the velocity and range envelope (don't ask me why) with hotter calibers and powders, I suspect maintaining uniformity in their cases may be important. Last year I was working up a load for 300 meter range in anticipation of long shots at Barbary sheep in Africa, so I was a bit more concerned with case uniformity. Not concerned enough though. I had to discard all my ammo after I got over there. The brass was too tired. Oops. The lodge gave me thirty new cases, I pulled my bullets, punched out the primers, saved the powder, set the dies for same jump to lands, and loaded up some fresh ones that shot right on the money. I did not weigh each case. It was late and didn't want to take the time. My PH wanted to go to bed. I did check several and trimming was not necessary so presumably they were all fairly uniform. Turned out to be overthinking anyway as only one of a dozen animals was over 110 yards (culled springbuck at 200 yards).

 

[44hunter45]

I ran a "scientific" experiment on this once. I found that when I used the same dies and case prep, then sorted by weight, there was no difference.
Groups did not open up, nor did POI change. THis was before I had a good chronograph, I can't tell you the SD numbers.

If I were shooting competitively, heck no!

 

[ccc23454]

I sort most and would never consider mixed loads in precision rifles. In my ar calibers i dont care, do load development/zero with single headstamp but hunt/shot everything. My 260 rem is almost all resized .243 or 7-08 brass from various manufactures, all hit 8" steel at 600 yards. I experimented with a 06 once and did find a significant difference when using 4831 due to case capacity of rp but mainly fed brass compared to everything else. I reduced load in that brass based on powder level in case (2 grains difference) and shots almost identical POI and speed as other brass. I dont think it matters as much as internet will tell you but always stay safe, work up and verify for yourself.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

I am probably more picky than the average hunter but not over-the-top obsessive about reloading practices. I wouldn't worry about if a 2x got mixed in with a 3x or something, but as a general practice no I would not mix it. When you start getting case head separations, donut formation, primer pockets wearing out, etc. you wouldn't know which cases to cull without going through every single one to check each metric of concern.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I am probably more picky than the average hunter but not over-the-top obsessive about reloading practices. I wouldn't worry about if a 2x got mixed in with a 3x or something, but as a general practice no I would not mix it. When you start getting case head separations, donut formation, primer pockets wearing out, etc. you wouldn't know which cases to cull without going through every single one to check each metric of concern.

^This.

I'm shitty at keeping things documented about which box has how many firings on them so they inevitable get mixed sometimes but I'd like to avoid it if I can.

 

[nhenry]

^This.

I'm shitty at keeping things documented about which box has how many firings on them so they inevitable get mixed sometimes but I'd like to avoid it if I can.

The reason I’m asking this question is for this scenario:
I have not a whole ton of 280 AI brass because a lot of it got trashed from a poor chamber, and the brass I do have has some mixed firings through the lot. I know how many firings each piece of brass has, but I don’t want to load some twice fired, sight in, run out, and then have to resight in on thrice fired brass loads. If I need to anneal I can figure that out, but ideally, I wouldn’t have to


I don’t know if that made sense

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I wouldn't worry about that scenario at all if I were you. If it is not fireformed 280rem brass and you're not working the crap out of it while sizing I wouldn't worry about big changes between twice and 3 time fired brass without annealing.

 

[nhenry]

I wouldn't worry about that scenario at all if I were you. If it is not fireformed 280rem brass and you're not working the crap out of it while sizing I wouldn't worry about big changes between twice and 3 time fired brass without annealing.

Well, half of my supply is fireformed, so what about that stuff?

 

[Brian in Montana]

I've noticed that when mixing headstamps that my velocities were all over the place which can be hard to notice at 100 yards but at 200 you notice and beyond that it's very evident. The inconsistencies in case volume and/or brass hardness can also effect pressure as you work up loads. 1 brand of brass may show signs at high charge weight but a piece from a different expresses signs of pressure at a lower charge weight...then you end up with a seized up bolt or worse.

I don't mix headstamps, rarely mix lots of brass (only small stuff like 204 and 233), and never mix lots on anything I'm serious about shooting. When reloading you're trying to control all variables and that's an easy one to control.

This.

Mixing headstamps doesn't seem to make a lot of difference at relatively short distance, but move back a little and you notice it. I've gotten pretty meticulous about my brass these days - use only the same headstamp and keep them sorted by how many times loaded/fired.

 

[Don Fischer]

I mixed brass many many years ago and it didn't work for me so I quit. Shooting cast bullet's I will mix but only military stuff. Have a lifetime supply of FA-49 30-06 cases nom. In the 308 I had at one time a supply of LC-Nat Match and didn't mix them either. I think the difference is the thickness of the cases. Outside they all meet sepc's but weigh case's and there's a pretty big difference even within the same brand.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Well, half of my supply is fireformed, so what about that stuff?

I have to say at this point I'm a little confused, which is probably just my lack of mental horsepower.
1)What is the range of number of firings for the fireformed brass? (i.e. 1x-5x?, 3x-4x?). Let's call this batch 1.
2)With the stuff that's not fireformed, is it 1x that you've picked up, or is it virgin brass? Let's call this batch 2.
3)About how many pieces do you have in batch 1 and batch 2?

If I'm understanding your question correctly...if the formed stuff is all within a firing or two and you're loading nice straight ammo (low runout) that's not too hot, it'll probably shoot and hunt fine. Once you start getting there on case life for any cases in batch 1, I'd just pitch it all. I would keep batch 2 separate and start tracking firings and case data on it now.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Well, half of my supply is fireformed, so what about that stuff?

if you have some 280r headstamp that's been fireformed to Ackley and some 280ai headstamp, i wouldn't treat them the same unless they prove that they basically act the same through a couple firings. The reason i clarified 280r headstamp fireformed is the annealing might come more in to play with them as the shoulders have been worked considerably more than the 280ai headstamp brass.