spook12
New member
Who would be left to vote?
Access to private lands that receive public subsidies?
- Thread starter SFC B
- Start date
Who would be left to vote?
SFC B
Well-known member
Look at our last couple of elections :/
spook12
New member
I would suggest that ALL the polls could be left closed from now on if anyone that receives''Government assistance/handouts'' not be allowed to vote.
rhomas
Banned
If you had bothered to read my post, I specifically referred to the old "land bank" program as an example of farmers not having an option as to whether or not they participated. Back then if we planted corn or soybeans, the Ag. Department required us to leave a certain portion of acreage fallow, we did receive a small stipend for doing so; but we were limited to a certain portion of acreage that could be planted. There wasn't an option. As I previously stated, we farmed about 120 acres back then, and had to leave 5% fallow. We couldn't even plant a garden on that 5%, much less anything else........that was the law. As I also stated, I'm opposed to subsidies in any form. Since my land is now planted in pines, I have no idea how the farm subsidies actually operate, and whether or not participation is mandatory in some areas or not.
As for the vote, it appears that the people who receive government handouts hold the majority in a large portion of the country, thus Obama has now been elected twice! With the upcoming amnesty bill, the liberal Democrats will increase the welfare class by over 11 million, thus guaranteeing a lock on all future elections and an absolute increase in the welfare state. Look for more subsidy programs in the future as the Feds put forth an effort to increase dependency on the government as a way of insuring a stronger Democratic (aided by RINOs such as my own Senator Graham) lock on the country.
As for the vote, it appears that the people who receive government handouts hold the majority in a large portion of the country, thus Obama has now been elected twice! With the upcoming amnesty bill, the liberal Democrats will increase the welfare class by over 11 million, thus guaranteeing a lock on all future elections and an absolute increase in the welfare state. Look for more subsidy programs in the future as the Feds put forth an effort to increase dependency on the government as a way of insuring a stronger Democratic (aided by RINOs such as my own Senator Graham) lock on the country.
Nobody.
LopeHunter - that's a pretty broad statement that doesn't bear up under reality.
wyoming556
Banned
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2010
- Messages
- 1,242
So you are suggesting that ALL Americans receive government handouts?
Interesting perspective.
I guess I am just simple minded and dont believe in BIG government and do believe in free markets. I'd propably feel differently if I received a check from the government instead of just paying taxes to the government.
Funny comment I heard while watching TV the other morning.
http://redalertpolitics.com/2013/05/08/duck-dynasty-star-we-did-build-duck-commander/
“Duck Dynasty” star and Duck Commander founder Phil Robertson told host Lara Spencer that the company had been created “with no government assistance” during an interview on Good Morning America Tuesday.
spook12
New member
Pretty much, yeah. Do you know anyone who doesn't buy gas,electricity or food?
Or drive or drink water or watch TV...
dustinf
Active member
Come on guys, let's stop using facts.
SFC B
Well-known member
Trying to equate the operation of public utilities to handouts is hillarious. It is the tactic of misdirection (Don't look here ....look over there, I promise IT is more interesting!! ). Food I will give you (forced upon us by Uncle Sugar). Gas? Do you even realize how much of the price of gas is the result of taxes? Really? This list includes where I live (CO) and where I am from (IN):
U.S. Gas Taxes (cents per gallon)
Gas Taxes/Fees (cpg) Colorado 40.4 Indiana 61.4
Not to mention license fees and excise taxes et al
TV? Not only do I pay for cable, I pay TAX on that service as well.
As for water and electricity, well that all depends on where you live. Some of those utilities are private, some are public. Lets not even talk about the artificially inflated commodities prices due to goverment surplus purchase pograms.
This is the biggest farce in hstory.....you (the taxpayer)pay me to keep my business going, pay to have the prices for my product at an artificial level, pay taxes on my product (AGAIN), make sure that all this helps my family "maintain our way of life" on large tracts of land that most of you can't EVER hope to afford to buy since all of this greatly inflates the price of land and THEN WHEN I MAKE PROFITS you get none of it back!!! WOW!!!
That is old school Richard Pryor funny right there
U.S. Gas Taxes (cents per gallon)
Gas Taxes/Fees (cpg) Colorado 40.4 Indiana 61.4
Not to mention license fees and excise taxes et al
TV? Not only do I pay for cable, I pay TAX on that service as well.
As for water and electricity, well that all depends on where you live. Some of those utilities are private, some are public. Lets not even talk about the artificially inflated commodities prices due to goverment surplus purchase pograms.
This is the biggest farce in hstory.....you (the taxpayer)pay me to keep my business going, pay to have the prices for my product at an artificial level, pay taxes on my product (AGAIN), make sure that all this helps my family "maintain our way of life" on large tracts of land that most of you can't EVER hope to afford to buy since all of this greatly inflates the price of land and THEN WHEN I MAKE PROFITS you get none of it back!!! WOW!!!
That is old school Richard Pryor funny right there
Big Shooter
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2008
- Messages
- 482
Wow!!! Great comment! I can honestly say that we do not receive any government payments because we ranch, and don't farm....there is a difference. My in-laws farm a boat load, wether they receive any subsidies...I don't know and don't give a rat's ass and damn sure don't judge them one way or the other. But why in the hell would you bitch about what the ag sector gets in government payments when they are the ones that are feeding your family? Contrary to popular belief, your protein sources do not come from the "grocery store". They are actually raised by farmers and ranchers that deal with drought, high input costs, volatile markets, severe weather one way or another, insects and a plethora of other variables, to not only provide for their own families, but also yours. But yet you think that you should be granted access if they receive any government subsidies....? Un "goddamned" believable!! If it weren't for the ag producers in the U.S., you and your family would be consuming inferior quality foods at a higher price.
Just because they might receive some payments does not entitle you to "Jack Shit"!! If I it is that important to you, there is plenty of good hunting/ag ground that you could damn sure purchase, and then you could be the lucky recipient of all of this "free" money.
SFC B
Well-known member
"Jack shit", huh? Well no ag folks GIVE my family "Jack shit"!!!!! Not only do I work to pay for (or hunt for) my family's food I PUT FOOD ON THEIR TABLES, both through profits and FREEBIES. As for purchasing land and growing crops, it is not the BUSINESS I choose or could affod even if I wanted to due to the incredibly inflated land prices we currently enjoy in my home area thanks wholely to our farmer buddies. I don't know about your family or where you live, but the majority of farmers in my county at home never bought an acre of land. Rather, some distant relative several generations ago was either fortunate enough to be at the right place at the right time or put forth the effort to clear the land. The current folks, for the most part, inherited their land and now have an attitude, JUST LIKE YOURS, that we all owe them not only undying gratitude for them actually doig their JOB but tax funds for eternity so that they can keep doing what they want, even if they can't be profitable on their own...now THAT IS UNBELIEVABLE!!!
The venom you and the other ag guys spew is a perfect example of the attitude of entitlement that is the problem..."You owe us, keep paying us out of your pocket ...TWICE, don't think about qestioning how jacked-up the welfare we recieve is, even though you pay for it...blahblahblah"
FWIW... Many, if not most, farmers in Indiana are not farming just what they own. The majority of producers I've known that do it full time lease/rent the majority of their acres. Cash rent prices vary, but $250/acre is not unheard of nor uncommon these days. However, with current commodity prices, cash rent is becoming less common. Many owners are now going on a percetage basis of the harvested. In some cases, any payment/subsidy is split between the owner and the tenant, but probably as often it's an either or proposition with one or the other being the one enrolled. Either way, the rules and limitations of enrollement and payment apply.
That said, these are federal programs which are very seperate from the state management of wildlife and hunting. As such, the tying of these two things (state approved hunting access to lands recieving federal ag subsidy/payments) requirement together is all but impossible and very improbable. I doubt either side would abdicate the funds or the management of their "sphere of influence" to the other. One way it has been done is through agreements. For instance, some states pay a CRP participant extra over what the get from the Feds for CRP to allow access. But, to have access tied to participation in federal programs, I can't ever see that happening and would have to research it, but I doubt that it's even legal.
rhomas
Banned
SFC, I'd suggest that you take a week's vacation from your regular job, and spend it working on a farm in order to get your perspectives readjusted. The problems we encounter with grocery prices, fuel prices, and everything else in this country can be directly tied to our government allowing imported goods to flood the markets, coupled with the production of ethanol, and subsidy programs that pay our largest farmers NOT to produce crops in order to allow the imported food items to take a larger percentage of the market. Then, as has been suggested, if non-resident hunters would be limited and even prohibited from inflating land costs, every day resident hunters might be able to afford lease lands for hunting. It's obvious from your comments and opinions, that you've never owned land, and your family evidently never owned any so you despise those of us who have been fortunate enough to inherit lands that our grandfathers and great grandfathers were intelligent enough to invest in for our benefit, and the benefit of our future generations........if the Feds and the states don't force us through taxation and imminent domain laws to forfeit our heritage. Farmers and ranchers have to buy food, gas, and utilities, just like everyone else. To put farmers and ranchers in the same category as welfare moochers isn't even realistic, even if they do receive subsidies. At least they are actually working, instead of sitting on their asses and just receiving handouts simply because that's all they have done for generations, along with the invaders from South of the Border who come here for the freebies. If you ever got to know a real farmer or rancher, you'd quickly find out that they would prefer to not have a subsidy program at all, if it meant an actual fair market access for the products they produce, as well as prices for the seed, fertilizer, fuel, feed, etc. that aren't over priced and over taxed.
If you want access to hunting land, either invest in your own land, pony up for the lease prices, or hunt public lands; but get real and accept the facts that private land ownership means private property rights that extend to wildlife that live and breed on that private land, eating and drinking the water that comes from that private land, and being protected by that private land owner.............whether he hunts them himself or leases the rights to others willing to pay as a means to offset the private expense incurred by the land owner!
If you want access to hunting land, either invest in your own land, pony up for the lease prices, or hunt public lands; but get real and accept the facts that private land ownership means private property rights that extend to wildlife that live and breed on that private land, eating and drinking the water that comes from that private land, and being protected by that private land owner.............whether he hunts them himself or leases the rights to others willing to pay as a means to offset the private expense incurred by the land owner!
Nemont
Well-known member
I grew up on a ranch, married into a farming and ranching family, primary industry where I live is ag, Been around the ag community my whole life, never ever heard this attitude. Griping about things, always, but I don't know that I have heard what you just posted.
Eating is the most democrat thing we as humans do, other than eliminating what we eat. Our government has decided that in order to have abundant food at cheap prices then taxpayers are going to even out the boom and bust cycle, help conserve things like top soil and water.
I have no issue with ending subsidies but I doubt the American people will be willing to out bid everyone else in the world and pay for what their food actually costs. I know the government doesn't want Americans to feel in their wallets like other countries have.
Farm subsidies will end before the Federal Government forces access to private lands for hunting and recreating.
Venom seems to flow whenever this subject comes up. If it is a gravy train, why not buy up some land now, have the government pay for it and cash the big checks then sit back and count your money? You seem to be jealous that other have more than you, get used to it life isn't fair. I am not 6'5" and built like a Greek God, or have the attributes of John Holmes but then again I eat doughnuts and am part Irish. Get over it.
Nemont
SFC B
Well-known member
"Venom seems to flow whenever this subject comes up. If it is a gravy train, why not buy up some land now, have the government pay for it and cash the big checks then sit back and count your money? You seem to be jealous that other have more than you, get used to it life isn't fair. I am not 6'5" and built like a Greek God, or have the attributes of John Holmes but then again I eat doughnuts and am part Irish. Get over it. "
Nemont
Having personally lived on 3 continents and in 5 countries other than our own, I can say that you have a seriously generous vision of what other countries would be willing or able to pay for our commodities. Having seen both the fairly prosperous European and dirt poor Asians I am pretty confident in saying that most who could afford to buy produce large amounts for themselves and the others simply can't afford it. I have faith in what we like to call a "free market" economy. Social programs (see Socialism) do nothing but cripple us in the long term.
Given the grossly inflated land prices at home, due in large part to our farming brothers and the lucrative nature of what they do and receive, I cannot afford to buy even a reasonably sized tract of land. If it isn't lucrative why aren't there farms for sale everywhere at reduced rates? A September 2012 Purdue Ag Department survey found that good quality IN cropland was going for and average of $7,704/acre and that when it became "transitional" with the possiblity of going from Ag to another purpose that value increased to $8,505/acre. During the year prior to that survey they found that across the state Ag land values had increased at rates of 14.3%-18.1%. Compare that to what all the other taxpayers helping to foot Ag bills are seeing on their property values (let alone the subs, rent and straight profit)and it becomes even more offensive. You are definitely right that life isn't fair BUT is not a matter of jealousy. It is a matter of disgust that I, and other taxpayers, are paying for the priviledge of being priced out of land ownership and any and all uses of that land and continue to be told we should be grateful for it. As soon as my tax money stops being used for purposes which are directly opposed to my best interests I will GET OVER IT.
Nemont
Having personally lived on 3 continents and in 5 countries other than our own, I can say that you have a seriously generous vision of what other countries would be willing or able to pay for our commodities. Having seen both the fairly prosperous European and dirt poor Asians I am pretty confident in saying that most who could afford to buy produce large amounts for themselves and the others simply can't afford it. I have faith in what we like to call a "free market" economy. Social programs (see Socialism) do nothing but cripple us in the long term.
Given the grossly inflated land prices at home, due in large part to our farming brothers and the lucrative nature of what they do and receive, I cannot afford to buy even a reasonably sized tract of land. If it isn't lucrative why aren't there farms for sale everywhere at reduced rates? A September 2012 Purdue Ag Department survey found that good quality IN cropland was going for and average of $7,704/acre and that when it became "transitional" with the possiblity of going from Ag to another purpose that value increased to $8,505/acre. During the year prior to that survey they found that across the state Ag land values had increased at rates of 14.3%-18.1%. Compare that to what all the other taxpayers helping to foot Ag bills are seeing on their property values (let alone the subs, rent and straight profit)and it becomes even more offensive. You are definitely right that life isn't fair BUT is not a matter of jealousy. It is a matter of disgust that I, and other taxpayers, are paying for the priviledge of being priced out of land ownership and any and all uses of that land and continue to be told we should be grateful for it. As soon as my tax money stops being used for purposes which are directly opposed to my best interests I will GET OVER IT.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
I want a 2500 acre prime habitat hunting spot...cheap. Life isn't fair.
Nemont
Well-known member
So your argument is that given that land is appreciating that quickly you can not afford to cash in on the gravy train of appreciating land? Ever hear the saying, "It doesn't matter what something costs, what matters is what it pays"? Looks like a great investment opportunity to grab some land hold it for a while, lease it, let somebody else farm it and all the sit back and get that free scratch Uncle Sugar is stuffing into your wallet. Why not wade in now and capture some gains or is just easier to let somebody else borrow the money, risk the capital, farm it and then gripe that you can't afford it? Looks like you can't afford not to buy an appreciating asset to me. Are you hoping for land to depreciate just so you can buy it? Have you seen how many dollars Ben Bernanke is printing, real assets are where it is at if you want to protect your wealth and land is one of the real assets that is appreciating because of the flood of new money being printed. If it is so good why not get into the game rather than whine about a TINY amount of the total Federal Budget?
I don't know how a measly little check from the Uncle drives up the price of land 14% a year but I suspect those lands are being driven up by the price of the commodities that can be grown on said lands. It the scale most guys are farming the government programs don't amount to whole lot of anything with input costs. End them today and the price of land isn't going to go backwards.
So out of everything our government spends money on you narrow it down to farm subsidies and are outraged that it goes to landowners. Again the amount spent on farm subsidies is a rounding error in the DoD budget, they probably spend more just on JP8.
So if you are bent over about less then 1% of the budget have a great time. Since when do you alone get to decide that the government can only spend money in YOUR best interests? Tell you what I will swap tax bills with you and I bet my taxes exceed yours by a huge amount and I don't get a say in where a single dollar goes. Get over it.
Life isn't fair.
Nemont
Last edited:
Big Shooter
Well-known member
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- Dec 15, 2008
- Messages
- 482
NeMont and rhomas have "knocked it out of the park" with their posts and reasoning. SFC B, you are not getting the fact that you are entitled to "Jack Shit" and only "Jack Shit"!! I am not saying that you should not be able to hunt public or if you can find some private, but your sense of entitlement has went way overboard. Tell me this.....let's say that you have some friends that receive food stamps (which I am guessing you do),....do you feel that you could just kick on in some evening and demand an evening dinner because your tax dollars paid for that food?!? Here is a well known fact: People that make a living in th ag sector are guaranteed nothing. When we turn our 40 head of bulls out in the spring, do you really think that we are guaranteed a calf crop the following year? When people spend days and days planting their crops do you think that they are guaranteed that those crops will come up, not get hailed on, not get eaten by insects and not have the market take a dive in the fall? There is one guarantee though, that you can ease on down to your local grocery store and buy protein sources for your family day in and day out and it will always be there....AS LONG AS THE AG PRODUCERS IN THIS COUNTRY STAY IN BUSINESS!!
If you or any others of you think that all farmers and ranchers strut on into town every fall and buy new pick-ups, trailers, machinery, equipment, whatever, because of subsidies from Uncle Sam, you could not be further from the truth.
If you or any others of you think that all farmers and ranchers strut on into town every fall and buy new pick-ups, trailers, machinery, equipment, whatever, because of subsidies from Uncle Sam, you could not be further from the truth.
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