98% favor less motorized access...

gunner...
I didn't realize that this is all it took to ruin a thread for you.
But then again, I know the source... ;)
You must have forgotten what I do to actually ruin threads!
I am guessing you did. :eek:
and here I actualy thought your memory was better than that.
But as one gets older, one starts to forget a lot of what they used to know... ;)
But then again, this isn't on topic, and you seem to be rambling off the beaten path also.
I do see what you are trying to do though, bait me into some thing that only you think I am ignorant enough to jump into that could possibly get me kicked out of here.
Well I guess you are not the Master Baiter you think you are. ;) still just an apprentice, keep trying though, it is commendable.... :)
.
But I want to stay on topic here and the above is getting us no where.
As stated above and keeping inside of this topic, I would agree that "Any" thing that comes up when asking about issues in this country to 98% has something pretty fishy about where the numbers actualy came from, and if it looks like it, and smells like it, it probably is it.... :D
 
How does one "ruin" a thread...seams hard to do... Man that snowmobile picture is cool and looks like a blast...How do snowmobiles destroy anything? the snow melts... tracks are gone..mmm
 
CJCJ- It is easy to ruin habitat with a snowmobile. Not all snow a snowmobile drives on is 6 feet deep (some deeper, some not so deep). I don't believe they do as much damage to habitat but the argument people have with snowmobiles is their conflict with cross-country skiers, wildlife, and in some cases habitat. Littering and noise pollution are lumped into the argument also. I have driven a snowmobile on Lolo Pass and they can dig up quite a mess even in deep snow. Tree tops are still sticking out and prolonged use can create trails where unnatural run off can occur.

Snowmobiling is quite enjoyable (I've only done it twice), but like anything else has to be done correctly. The people I went with were very conscience of where they were going and what they were doing. I saw others barrelling through areas they probably shouldn't have been (for example a hillside that only had about a foot of snow.) They were tearing stuff up.
 
MattK - Anyone that rides their sled off trail in one foot of snow is an idiot. All things aside, it will most likely ruin your expensive equipment. It's a great way to test your tow rope. If they don't care about their equipment then it is probably safe to assume they don't care about much else.

Conflict with x-country skiers is a social issue, not a resource issue. Snowmobilers believe in shared use, backcountry skiers and snowshoers believe in exclusive use of OUR public lands. They also do not want snowmobiles treated any differently than summer motorized vehicles by the forest service. Why do you think that is?

Riding in marked winter range is against the law not to mention unethical. The Idaho State Snowmobile Association absolutely respects the need for unimpeded winter range and will not oppose a closure where this is an issue.

Here is an article I had bookmarked that puts impact into perspective. It should go without saying that this is an extreme example in both the concentration and number of hikers, and the concentration (all sleds taking a similar line up the hill), snow depth, number, and performance characteristics of the snowmobiles. The point is that it is not very easy to ruin habitat with snowmobiles, including worm habitat. How much damage can a soft rubber track do to frozen dirt?

http://www.jacksonholenet.com/news/jackson_hole_news_03-28-01ro.php


It is helpful to read the whole thing.
Jackson Hole News 03-28-01ro

USFS won't stop snowmobile hillclimb

Sullivan says summer hikers cause more damage than snowmobilers.

By Rachel Odell, Jackson Hole News

Even with warm temperatures, melting snow and the early arrival of mud season, the World Championship Snowmobile Hill Climb on Snow King Mountain will run.

The four-day event, which sends about 200 snowmobile riders up the steep slopes of the popular mountain, will not be halted by a lack of snow, said Nancy Hall, Jackson District ranger for the Bridger-Teton National Forest. Snow King Resort leases the mountain from the Forest Service and has the authority to hold special events, Hall said. Resort executives - not forest officials - determined whether or not to run the race, she said.

"We have permitted that entire area to Snow King, and they will be responsible for mitigating the damage to the resource," she said. In other words, if the hill climb causes soil erosion and kills grasses, the resort will reseed and mulch the disturbed area, she said.

Hall said she plans to examine the mountain herself this week, but that the final determination will be made by Snow King and the Jackson Hole Snow Devils, the snowmobile club that sponsors the hill climb.

"They assured me that it will all be back in shape after the event," Hall said. "Right now I feel confident. Snow King has been a good permittee." Snow King ski area manager Jim Sullivan said the snow, though thin, is better than some previous years.

On Monday he measured 22 inches of snow on the upper mountain, 23 inches of man-made snow at the base and 29 inches at mid-mountain. Bare spots on the hill did not concern him, he said.

"This is not as bad as it has been in the past," he said. For instance, in 1992, only a small strip of snow snaked up the mountain and spectators enjoyed the event wearing as little as a pair of shorts. Workers lined the snow strip with straw and warned participants they would be riding through mud and stumps.

Sullivan admitted that the snowpack is not ideal and that last week's warm temperatures and rain did not help "preserve the integrity of the snow."

In fact he closed the area to skiing for the day on March 20 because the snow conditions were so bad. Currently the Rafferty Lift and the upper mountain of Snow King are closed to skiers because of a lack of snow.

When the hill climb competitors race up the hill, they will stir up the soil and could make mud, he said. However, it will look worse than it actually is, he said.

"It is like rototilling a garden," he said. "It doesn't take a lot of dirt to make snow look dirty. The effect looks a lot worse than the actual physical damage."

Hall said her main concern is that the event does not damage the resource. There will not be a Forest Service staff person on hand to stop the event if it appears damage is occurring.

"My biggest concern is erosion control and vegetation management," Hall said. "If they go forward with the event, we would require them to reseed and our vegetation specialist would work with them during that."

Canceling the hill climb would have disappointing consequences, Sullivan said. Many hotels and restaurants rely on the hill climb to provide an economic boost to the end of the winter season, he said.

Norris Brown III, a long-time organizer and supporter for the Snow Devils, said the event would be cancelled, "over our dead bodies." He estimated that the Snow Devils would lose between $10,000 to $12,000 if the event were to be called off. Organizers donate significant sums to charity.

Moreover, businesses are suffering because of a poor winter season, Brown said. The most fragile area on the mountain is below the first cat track, where the course can be changed, and there is little growth on the upper mountain, he said.

Jackson resident David Gonzales lives at the base of Snow King and said it is "hard to believe they won't do a lot of damage this year."

"A snowmobile going straight up the hill is going to chew up the mountain," Gonzales said. "I know how important the hill climb is to the town, but there is no way they can say it won't damage the resource. If anything is going to do serious damage to the forest, then they should shut it down." Sullivan believes the hill climb will have less severe consequences than hikers do in the summer. He said that people hiking off the cat track and straight up Snow King cause deep trenches to establish that promote erosion. "The damage at this hill climb will be considerably less than people hiking with their dogs in the summer," he said.

© 1995/2004 Jackson Hole Net
Click to expand...
 
Hangar18- I have no problem with snowmobiling. I think snowmobilers, as a group, are very conscience of public image unlike their atv counterparts. Snowmobiling is a lot more organized and a good winter activity. They tend to police themselves quite a bit also. I understand there is less damage to a hill under 5 feet of snow. IMO your example is a bad one for allowing snowmobiling. It refutes the 1 foot of snow argument you made. Since dirt would be chewed up on the mountain much like a rototiller. The fact a hiker would do more damage to the ground than a snowmobile is misleading at best...If thats the case I will let you walk on me with hiking boots and I will do a spin out with a snowmobile's soft rubber track on you. I bet I look a lot better than you do in the end.

Over-all, I understand your argument and agree with you but the people in the article are definitely biased toward snowmobiling. In my other post I was simply pointing out the reasons some people want snowmobiling restrictions.
 
OK, a better example. Park a rototiller on a bare hill (no snow on it) this winter and turn it on for 10 seconds. That will do more damage to the FROZEN ground than a rubber snowmobile track will for 1-2 seconds they touch it while spinning out, and even more damage than a track will while spinning under a moving sled.

Next, come summer time, go hike past the same spot every day. Or somehow mimic the foot traffic described in the article.

What will do more damage? Think about it without bias.
 
Hangar- In your example the ground was not frozen solid, in fact most of the time it isn't because snow is a great insulator. It didn't say hiking up the same spot everyday. I guess I must have read a different article that you posted. The one posted above is a bad example all the way around and I don't believe very indicative of most snowmobile use. The article is biased. The FS didn't have anyone controlling the event. In fact it doesn't have a follow up article on the amount of actual damage caused. The article only stated there may be damage to the vegetation and it would have to be reseeded at the events expense if there were any. I don't get what you were trying to prove with the article.
 
LOL....
One way to ruin a thread is to ask for particulars when one is wrongly accused.
That hurts peoples feelings, especially when they can't answer and won't appologize for their own transgretions, especially when some are tenatouse enough to not give up until some thing is resolved, well pretty much.... ;)
Oh No, there I go getting all phylisophical agian.... :eek: :D
 
ELKCHSR said:
LOL....

transgretions,
tenatouse
phylisophical
Click to expand...

Can we get a Translator in here, or at least somebody with a Dictionary?

Hey Hangar,
How come you never offered me the spare sled up on West Mtn.? There are some cool new ski runs that you can sled after dark....
 
The ground isn't frozen in Jackson WY in March? Interesting. My shovel must be dull then. And that building code of pipes needing to be buried 24" must exist so as not to harm the worm habitat.

You call the article biased. It quotes the manager of Snow King, the District Ranger, and a local. The ranger isn't concerned. The event has been held for 30 years. There was no damage in 2001 except for the old pole on the south side of the run, I was there as a spectator. Lots of snow fell during the prior week, and I had the privilage of getting stuck in it many times at Towgotee Pass the same weekend.

You are right about this not being very indicative of normal use. Usually there are far fewer high performance sleds congregated in one area riding the same line. Here is a tip - during the hillclimb riders stay in the snow, and off the ice and dirt because they loose traction. 2" paddles on ice or dirt mean the end of your run.

Your claims, like those of others interested in having their own private playground on OUR public land, are baseless.

Please provide proof of the bias, and the damage to the ski hill and to those areas you have supposedly witnessed.



Gunner - The spare sled arrived from Kemmerer WY as an early Christmas present a month ago. It has a really bright headlight. I bet we could out-run the snow cats.
 
No one gives a rats ass about spelling, punctuation etc. as long as we know what they mean and are saying [ask the Moose]
 
Yup cjcj...
That the only argment sum hav wen they have lost all others... ;) :)
I wood mention thoe, at leest the determinatesion is stil ther.... :)
 
Hangar- I may have to take you up on that offer! I'm planning on being in Boise the end of Feb for the DHI banquet. I am a bit worried though as I'm afraid I'll get hooked and then I may be tempted to rob my dall sheep hunt fund! ;)
 
1_pointer - I should be open to go at that time. I will be in McCall Feb 17-21. There are ways to deal with the addiction so that it does not effect other addictions. Keep me posted, that should be a really good time of year to go riding. As of now, consider yourself invited to go riding in Cascade on West Mountain.
 
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