.308win and monolithic bullets

[S-3 Ranch]

Very much new to shooting a .308 , this season I had to shoot whatever I could find , Norma 150 white tail and I want to get some better preformance and was researching monolithic
seems like I need to drop some weight to 130gr ttsx , I look and 99% of the monos require
+/- 2000fps to open them. the .308 seems very anemic past 300 meters , thus has me worried about energy transfer with 150-165 mono’s .
question is should I just stick to CC like partitions & accubond in .308 or do the barns & sako
preform @ those low FPS <300 meters ?

 

[TN2shot07]

From my experience you are correct about going with a lighter bullet when swapping to monos. The 150’s in a tsx/ttsx should be fine out of a 308, that’s what I use in a 30-06. I use the 130’s in a 270 and 100’s in my 25-06.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I think 130gn mono will have low enough BC that it will actually end up worse for longe range ballistics and has a fairly weak sectional density.

My .308Win Tikka shoots 150gn TTSX at 2760fps which keeps me at over 1000ftlbs + 2000fps out to 360y and 1500ftlbs + 2000fps out to 300y and shoots 5 shot groups consistently at 0.60 MOA. It has taken a half dozen large animals in US and Africa. It is a real bread and butter go-to for me.

You can also look at the 175gn LRX which are designed to have better BC and expand at 1800fps.

Finally, check out the 151gn Absolute Hammers. I have not used them in .308 cal, but Hammer added a lot of velocity over the ttsx in my 7mm08.

 

[Don Fischer]

I'm guessing CC means lead core. Something about bullets. They are designed to work a certain way. Some can certainly fail now and them but generally the bullet seldom fails, the shooter does. Take a lead core varmint bullet and try to endo an animal and likely your gonna be disappointed and blame the bullet. Take the right bullet and poorly place the shot and again your gonna be disappointed and blame the bullet. Take a monolithic bullet and miss place it and again, blame the bullet. In each case the shooter is to blame, not the bullet. The 308 is very poor past 300 meter's. The only way it will work is if the shooter properly places the bullet. Shooting out that far and more is all about shooting, if you fail, don't blame the rifle or cartridge, the next guy might just make it work! I know nothing to speak of about monolithic bullets other than it seems you have to go down in weight with them. My guess why would be a 150gr mono bullet might need to be seated to deep in a case. But a heavier 165gr lead core bullet driven at about the same speed as a 130gr mono will deliver more pounds of energy till some where going through the animal. Reason being the lead core bullet loses weight penetrating and the mono doesn't. Normally a mono entering will deliver about the same energy all the way through the animal. The lead core bullet will expand and actually lose weight penetrating. Two things penetrate velocity and weight. 130gr mono should exit with the same energy it enters with. 165 gr partition is designed to maintain 70% of it's weight so it will exit with less energy than it enters with. Bonded bullets, at least Noslers, are designed to maintain 70% of their weight. But here's the kicker, most all of them on a chest shot will exit the animal unless something heavy is hit. So with that in mind, really doesn't matter what bullet you use as long as you can shoot it well and place it well. Wouldn't phase me one bit to shoot at game with a 130gr mono bullet. What phases me is the cost of the bullets!

I should add that a 165gr lead core bullet that loses 30% of it's weight penetrating weights, in theory, 115.5 grs. That means somewhere penetrating it's energy and weight dropped below the 130gr mono bullet.

 

[ImBillT]

I believe you’re on the right track. Others will disagree. Many will say that monos kill like they’re 30% heavier. It’s my belief that they PENETRATE like they’re 30% heavier. FMJs penetrate really well too. It’s true that MOST of them don’t expand reliably at velocities as low as most cup and core bullets, and obviously you’re going to need some expansion for a quick kill. That’s why most people report that monos are best at high velocities. If you want a mono to kill like a 150gr, it’s my opinion that you need a 150gr mono. HOWEVER, if you look at some other cartridges shooting 130gr bullets you should notice that a 130gr bullet is not incapable of killing game effectively. The 270Win with a 130 is a classic. The 7-08, 243Win, and 6.5 Rem Mag, and 25-06 have been deer slayers for decades with 115-120gr bullets. I’m sure plenty of elk have been killed with a 130gr from a 270, and lighter bullets from the others, even though 130gr is a little on the light side of commonly recommended elk loads.

I think a 130gr mono from a 308Win should be more than satisfactory for all but bear, elk and moose, and plenty of folks would say it would be fine for the above three, even though I would personally feel better about a 140-150fr bullet being the minimum for anything larger or more dangerous than a mule deer(I’m sure others think 150gr is too light).

If you want to shoot a mono from a 308Win, I would stay in the 130gr range. If you wanted a little more mass, I personally would switch to cup and core.

 

[ImBillT]

I think 130gn mono will have low enough BC that it will actually end up worse for longe range ballistics and has a fairly weak sectional density.

My .308Win Tikka shoots 150gn TTSX at 2760fps which keeps me at over 1000ftlbs + 2000fps out to 360y and 1500ftlbs + 2000fps out to 300y and shoots 5 shot groups consistently at 0.60 MOA. It has taken a half dozen large animals in US and Africa. It is a real bread and butter go-to for me.

You can also look at the 175gn LRX which are designed to have better BC and expand at 1800fps.

Finally, check out the 151gn Absolute Hammers. I have not used them in .308 cal, but Hammer added a lot of velocity over the ttsx in my 7mm08.

I have not run the numbers but it usually takes a lot more than 360yds for BC to fully make up for velocity difference. Are you sure he would not stay above 2000fps quite a bit farther than 360yds?

That said, if you’re above 2000fps to 360yds, that seems serviceable enough, that unless you were planning to exceed 400yds, I would rather have the extra 20gr of bullet mass.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I have not run the numbers but it usually takes a lot more than 360yds for BC to fully make up for velocity difference. Are you sure he would not stay above 2000fps quite a bit farther than 360yds?

That said, if you’re above 2000fps to 360yds, that seems serviceable enough, that unless you were planning to exceed 400yds, I would rather have the extra 20gr of bullet mass.

At 360y at sea level - 425y at 4,000ft

 

[ImBillT]

At 360y at sea level - 425y at 4,000ft

Yes, but how does it actually compare to the 130?

But still, 425y at a more likely western hunting elevation, I would lean more toward the 150gr mono than I realized.

ON THE OTHER HAND, how good are the bullets in question at 2000fps? Someone with actual experience would be needed. I’ve seen some pretty pitiful expansion even in pics from manufacturers.

 

[nhenry]

I think 130gn mono will have low enough BC that it will actually end up worse for longe range ballistics and has a fairly weak sectional density.

My .308Win Tikka shoots 150gn TTSX at 2760fps which keeps me at over 1000ftlbs + 2000fps out to 360y and 1500ftlbs + 2000fps out to 300y and shoots 5 shot groups consistently at 0.60 MOA. It has taken a half dozen large animals in US and Africa. It is a real bread and butter go-to for me.

You can also look at the 175gn LRX which are designed to have better BC and expand at 1800fps.

Finally, check out the 151gn Absolute Hammers. I have not used them in .308 cal, but Hammer added a lot of velocity over the ttsx in my 7mm08.

Like Bill said, it usually takes a bit for BC to take effect. Whenever I shoot light stuff in 7mm or .257, the trajectories are always better out to substantial distance than heavier loads, just because they're going much faster. I'm sure it's the same with 308 and 130s

 

[S-3 Ranch]

.

 

[VikingsGuy]

ON THE OTHER HAND, how good are the bullets in question at 2000fps? Someone with actual experience would be needed. I’ve seen some pretty pitiful expansion even in pics from manufacturers.

My son and I have killed two dozen or so animals ranging from doe antelope to good-sized cow elk to 400lb bears to 1100lb zebra at ranges from 60y to 435y with various mono bullets in cartridges from 30-30 to 300WSM - not one of those animals took a second shot or went further than 50 feet - half didn't move a foot. I am absolutely confident that mono bullets loaded at the sweet spot for the appropriate cartridge will ethically take any animal in north america within 450y if the shooter does their job. I would say 150gn is the sweet spot for .308/30-06/300WSM. 130gn for 7mm08. 90-100gn for 25-06. 140gn for 280AI, 7x57AI & 7RM.

I don't pay any attention to hunting over 500y so don't have any thoughts on options there.

 

[JLS]

I’ve killed plenty of stuff with bullets under 150 grains. If you can’t kill something at 300 yards with monos in a .308 then the issue isn’t the bullet.

 

[ImBillT]

My son and I have killed two dozen or so animals ranging from doe antelope to good-sized cow elk to 400lb bears to 1100lb zebra at ranges from 60y to 435y with various mono bullets in cartridges from 30-30 to 300WSM - not one of those animals took a second shot or went further than 50 feet - half didn't move a foot. I am absolutely confident that mono bullets loaded at the sweet spot for the appropriate cartridge will ethically take any animal in north america within 450y if the shooter does their job. I would say 150gn is the sweet spot for .308/30-06/300WSM. 130gn for 7mm08. 90-100gn for 25-06. 140gn for 280AI, 7x57AI & 7RM.

I don't pay any attention to hunting over 500y so don't have any thoughts on options there.

I don’t doubt in the least that they’ll work, OR that some are designed to function at lower impact velocities than others. My question was more toward whether or not the 2000fps floor was actually appropriate for the specific bullet in question.

Frankly I’m not terribly confident in most conventional bullets too far under 2000fps. That’s likely something that a Partition really shines at, but I don’t have any personal experience with such.

 

[ImBillT]

Like Bill said, it usually takes a bit for BC to take effect. Whenever I shoot light stuff in 7mm or .257, the trajectories are always better out to substantial distance than heavier loads, just because they're going much faster. I'm sure it's the same with 308 and 130s

Velocity will catch up before trajectory. Again, I haven’t run numbers, the 150gr might well catch the 130gr IN VELOCITY in under 400yds.

 

[N2TRKYS]

I would say 150gn is the sweet spot for .308/30-06/300WSM.

To me, you can’t paint it with that broad of a brush. It just doesn’t work that way.

 

[VikingsGuy]

To me, you can’t paint it with that broad of a brush. It just doesn’t work that way.

A "sweet spot" by definition is a compromise, so yes it can. It doesn't mean that for one specific purpose or another there aren't particular optimal options. Feel free to post your own opinions to add to the discussion.

 

[nhenry]

These are the numbers for my area, so take it for what you will. A comparison of the ballistic charts for 130gr ttsx and 150gr ttsx out to 500yds.

Max loads from Barnes' load data

 

[ImBillT]

A "sweet spot" by definition is a compromise, so yes it can. It doesn't mean that for one specific purpose or another there aren't particular optimal options. Feel free to post your own opinions to add to the discussion.

Disagree. I believe the “sweet spot” for a cartridge, for MY purposes, is the highest bullet weight that I can propel to somewhere around 2900-3250fps. Why I prefer that range is a topic for another discussion, but to meet my desires, can increase bullet weight above 150gr in the 30-06 and 30 cal magnums.

 

[ImBillT]

These are the numbers for my area, so take it for what you will. A comparison of the ballistic charts for 130gr ttsx and 150gr ttsx out to 500yds.

Max loads from Barnes' load data

If the performance is satisfactory all the way down to 2000fps, I would choose the 150gr, and probably use it even on elk without concern. If the floor is higher, I would choose the 130gr, and probably choose a larger cartridge or different bullet for elk.

 

[N2TRKYS]

A "sweet spot" by definition is a compromise, so yes it can. It doesn't mean that for one specific purpose or another there aren't particular optimal options. Feel free to post your own opinions to add to the discussion.

A 150 grain ttsx out of a 308 won’t have the same expansion as it would out of a 300wsm driven at top speeds.