Caribou Gear

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Do you think it's good government policy to reward people with cheap and plentiful permits for living in a place where they can barely make a living?
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Whiptail December 2017 We've been here before. Whiptail, your questions and statements are interesting and thought-provoking, albeit they smack of anti-government fearfulness. It seems many here process information with a different cognitive platform of logic and reason. Family, hunting, wildlife, and wild places are the prime drivers behind many of our decisions ... not politics, governmental concerns, or money.

When considering the hunting license and permitting process, it is important to recognize the authority and process for determining the numbers and costs. It is each state on behalf of the citizens of that particular state and on behalf of the wildlife inhabiting that state ... not a "government" rewarding people with anything for "living in a place where they can barely make a living". That nexus is not a logical and rational dynamic which can be shown at all ... and it certainly has extremely little, or more accurately ... nothing to do with the national debt.
 
Well, I'm officially out of the MT game. Poor deer quality, coupled with high price and the fact that the closest border is a 17 hour drive for me just doesn't make sense to put in anymore. There's better quality Elk and Deer hunting closer. It's been a nice 15 year run.
 
I look at NR tags from an ROI point of view. Big Fin will appreciate this view with his being an Accountant and all...Let's say you go on vacation for a week to a beautiful lake area. You live in a nice place, but too many people, no lake, etc. so you choose to take the vacation. The vacation presents you with extra cost from travel, lodging, food, entertainment, etc. You decide to rent a jet ski for the week at $1,200.00. Its a three seater so you can pull pull skiers and ride three people at the same time - maximum fun. If you bought the ski it would cost you $14K. Now $1,200 is a lot for one week. But its a lot cheaper than actually owning the ski, insurance, maintenance, storage, not to mention the opportunity cost of tying up capital.

In my view a western NR tag is a super great deal for all the reasons renting a jet ski is a better choice than owning one. Owning a jet ski for a one week vacation doesn't work for most folks. I live out East, make plenty of money, enjoy a few weeks vacation time, and have plenty of work options if my current gig needs a change. Owning MT (living there) would be a significant financial set back and reduce the ROI. Renting a week or two in Montana is way better than the full life style change and reduction in income I would most likely encounter if I moved to MT. Now some folks make that choice and they are rewarded with intangible blessings and cheap resident tag costs. But the ROI on moving to MT versus renting MT is way in the favor of renting. Renting MT and the NR Tag frees up your capital earned out East or on the West Coast to do many other things. Next time you want to complain about the NR tag, look at it as if you are renting a Jet Ski. The cost wont seem so overwhelming. I'm sure Big Fin could put this in a spreadsheet to further prove the point!
 
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Say residents did have to pay $1,200 for the combo, they would be crazy NOT to spend that money on the tags because you live right there where you hunt. Maybe you residents don’t hunt minutes away from the spots you like to hunt, but I’d bet most of your hunts are usually within a few hours of home. My two trips each season totaled 4,800 miles just getting to where I am hunting. That doesn’t include miles driven while hunting.

I did the math, and just on tags, fuel and a week’s worth of staying in a motel (I cut costs by spending many nights in the back of the truck or tent) would mean I would have to allocate $235 a month to make my two annual trips. Another big minus is the 5 days wasted driving from my home state to MT and back, when I could use those valuable days actually hunting in a nearby state and not driving.

$235 a month is a lot when paying rent for a place, utilities, living expenses, car insurance, health insurance, etc. I work hard for my money and I don’t want to spend it like it’s going to rot. I would much rather save it to invest it into real estate so I don’t have to work so damn hard in the future. Hunting is a huge part of my life, but it is not my life. There are other things that are just as, if not more important, than hunting.

Deer hunting in E. Montana used to be pretty damn good and was definitely worth the money. If you put your time in walking coulees you could usually expect to see a 160 type buck each season, with a chance at a bigger one every two or three years. I have killed only one buck in Montana since 2013; not a very good return for a tag that is $600+. I started hunting deer in other states and since 2014 I’ve killed 5 bucks over 167” for tags that are nearly half the price in areas that are half the distance from home.

Lastly, I don’t agree with the war Montana has waged on its Elk. While maybe it has only been a slow downward sloping trend, both quality and quantity has taken a bit of a hit as of late. I’ve also seen some damn good Elk while deer hunting the last few years in other easy to draw or OTC states in extremely accessible public land areas. Montana’s vast swaths of private land continue to harbor so many of the Elk in soooo many areas literally making them unavailable for the public hunter. The last few years I’ve seen some really great block management areas stop enrolling in the BM program cutting off even more accessible private land and adjacent public. Really, MT hunting is not heading in a good direction; too bad, because it has soo much potential.
 
I find it interesting that some western hunters feel they are entitled to cheap tags.

I'm willing to guess the average American hunter makes far less than six figures. I believe the western states have priced 90% of potential NR hunters right out of the game. No responsible person will give priority to a $1000 elk tag over buying groceries, paying bills or saving for college educations.

Unfortunately, these blue collar folks wont be able to experience western hunting and the greatness of our public lands. These same people don't understand the problems our public lands face, nor will they probably give a rip.

I see the whole situation as a sad down hill spiral.
 
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Lost in all this discussion is the fact that western states aren't necessarily under the obligation to make any tags available to non-residents.

The reason states do make tags available is because they can charge much higher prices and earn more money to fund the agency. If you get rid of the high costs--or the big difference between R and NR tags--then you get rid of the primary reason resident hunters are okay with allowing NR hunters. As I mentioned in earlier posts, this has all been litigated to the highest levels.

So although I am very much in favor of nonresidents hunting as many places as they wish--complaining about the price is extremely short-sighted in light of the fact these high prices are the very reason NR opportunities even exist in the first place.
 
Wyoming and Montana residents for example, make up a very tiny portion of the voting public. Washington politicians look at voter numbers. Every NR that's priced out of the game is another vote lost for our public lands.
This is my opinion. Hopefully, my grandchildren will be able to enjoy the same experiences I have. I don't think looking off into the long term is a bad thing.
 
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Sytes said:
I was curious if there were any Federal or State legal non resident challenges to State's non resident discriminatory application of hunt/fish regulations.

A good read for those interested.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAEegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw3qqCl70pXA67N_xoC7mlPK

It seems the challenges placed for consideration have yet to overcome prior Federal rulings. Figured it's been challenged.
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It's a good way to blow some money on attorneys. Plenty of cases out there, all of which have pretty much ended in the same result - A hunter who got to pay a law firm a ton of money. It is what happens when you have the 10th Amendment written how it is and interpreted as the courts have, added to the precedents that say non-resident hunting is a privilege rather than a Constitutional Right, and courts ruling that hunting is a recreational activity that is not governed by the many clauses under which cases have been made. As hunting gets more and more commercialized, some of those clauses might become more applicable and the precedents, such as that decided in Baldwin v. Commissioner, may be deemed no longer valid.
 
I read the initial response, and thought a waste of money. It was nice that a more informed person agreed.
 
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cur dog said:
I find it interesting that some western hunters feel they are entitled to cheap tags.
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Why do they feel entitled....maybe it would be fairer for public lands if NR tag prices remain high...but also raise the prices on the R tags too match. After all the public lands are funded by all of us. That's what public means. Now if you want the state to own and operate the lands, like Utah, then I guess you should be able to charge the R whatever the State settles on as equitable. Right now western residents have it both ways, but the Republicans are working hard to change that...you might have cheap tags but nowhere to hunt in the days ahead unless your uncle is a rich cattle man.mv
 
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ErictheRed said:
Why do they feel entitled....maybe it would be fairer for public lands if NR tag prices remain high...but also raise the prices on the R tags too match. After all the public lands are funded by all of us. That's what public means. Now if you want the state to own and operate the lands, like Utah, then I guess you should be able to charge the R whatever the State settles on as equitable. Right now western residents have it both ways, but the Republicans are working hard to change that...you might have cheap tags but nowhere to hunt in the days ahead unless your uncle is a rich cattle man.mv
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You forget the earlier points about what it "costs" us to live in certain states. We already pay in other ways for our licenses. There is no "fair" in giving up salary and opportunity to live in Montana. Just because there are animals on federal public lands does not mean ALL the animals are; 2/3 of MT is private. And just because states have land, does not mean that those are public (See CO). Your "right" to public land does not give you "right" to animals or their management. That would be entitlement.
 
406LIFE said:
You forget the earlier points about what it "costs" us to live in certain states. We already pay in other ways for our licenses. There is no "fair" in giving up salary and opportunity to live in Montana. Just because there are animals on federal public lands does not mean ALL the animals are; 2/3 of MT is private. And just because states have land, does not mean that those are public (See CO). Your "right" to public land does not give you "right" to animals or their management. That would be entitlement.
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Can you show what you mean by you paid for F&G funding by living there and how it compares to other western states? Someone said taxes, I am interested in how much tax you pay funds the wildlife because I ain't buying it. Damn near every state has nonresident tags, some residents pay for the funding, some rely on others to do so.
 
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schmalts said:
Can you show what you mean by you paid for F&G funding by living there and how it compares to other western states? Someone said taxes, I am interested in how much tax you pay funds the wildlife because I ain't buying it. Damn near every state has nonresident tags, some residents pay for the funding, some rely on others to do so.
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I was thinking the same thing every time I saw this excuse pop into this thread. We all pay dues with the area we live in. Heck I live in an area ( heart of the Appalachian mountains) per capita that is probably as bad as anywhere in this nation for poverty levels. We all pay taxes and last time I checked Montanans get by pretty cheap on taxes.

But here is the bottom line for every guy that drops out there are two more dummies joining the game. As long as the demand is there nothing will be any different. I can't blame resident's wanting their cake and eating it to for as long as they can. Unfortunately my home state isn't like that we pay what I would consider pretty average for tags. Think my sportsman is a little over $130 a year.
 
Greenhorn said:
Feel free to move here and make a living if you want to hunt on the el'cheapo.
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I'd love to but not much of an option for me until retirement days. Then you may just see that happen. Now if the wife takes off next week I may just transfer on out. Lol
 
schmalts said:
Can you show what you mean by you paid for F&G funding by living there and how it compares to other western states? Someone said taxes, I am interested in how much tax you pay funds the wildlife because I ain't buying it. Damn near every state has nonresident tags, some residents pay for the funding, some rely on others to do so.
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Feel free to not "buy" anything you want, including a NR hunting license in Montana. If you want cheap R licenses, pick up and move to Montana.

Here's what I know, Resident hunters do many things that you don't as a NR. Each state has a bunch of people that volunteer countless hours attending legislative sessions to support good bills, kill bad ones, and do what's best for wildlife. There are dozens of NGO's in each state that donate a chitload of cash to fund all sorts of wildlife related projects, from collaring studies, to conservation easements, to___________(fill in the blank). Countless hours donated for various on the ground projects that do a lot for wildlife. The list goes on and on and on what Residents do to help hunting, public lands, access, etc. in every State. What about serving on various commissions, committees, task forces, etc. that is all done by Resident Hunters on a volunteer basis?

I can tell you Pat, that I'll gladly pay for your NR hunting license for deer, elk or pronghorn each year in the state of your choice, if you'll pay just my mileage and hotel rooms for driving all over the State attending meetings on behalf of hunters, public lands, and wildlife. We wont get into the vacation days I spend to make those meetings. Anytime you want...we can work out the details.

I'm sick and tired of the high pitched whining about how you're doing so much for wildlife and providing "welfare" for Residents. You're getting a screaming deal by simply scribbling a check once a year for the opportunity to hunt...BFD. Plenty of people to take your place that wont cry about it when they do.

I strongly suggest if you don't like doing the small part you do each year, hang it up and stay home blasting turkeys and whitetails.
 
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